Most Exciting Musical Moments of the 90's!

[newdawnfades]

Were there any exciting moments? All I heard was alot of self-pity and depression...no guitar solos...no big hair...no fun.

I reckon House music was the most wonderful thing about the 90s.

I think it was a natural reaction to the image focused big hair style of the 80's. I don't think people remember just how truly bad IT WAS in the 80's with these caricature bands. Grunge was very exciting, it felt like a rock movement rather than rock drudgery.

 

[Big Generator]

I think it was a natural reaction to the image focused big hair style of the 80's. I don't think people remember just how truly bad IT WAS in the 80's with these caricature bands. Grunge was very exciting, it felt like a rock movement rather than rock drudgery.

I disagree. I think people can't remember just how good it was in the 1980s. I'm not defending the Jovi-style acts between 1987-89 - but in restrospect even they were more fun than the dreary bands of the 1990s.

For me, Grunge opened the door to a generation of uncharismatic, humourless and amateurish musicians...droning on about how terrible life was the whole time...and making money out of their supposedly authentic pain and negativity. The return of the 'punk ethos' was a nightmare for those us who could remember it the first time around - but at least it didn't last long - all the 'rebellious' and 'leftfield' acts soon became as contrived and corporate as Winger.

And what has Grunge left us with? What did all that angst and self-pity achieve? Nothing. Other than an 'alternative' formula for the production line.

 

[newdawnfades]

I think Pearl Jam was just as talented if not more than most every band of the 80's. Alice In Chains was a very talented and skilled band. So was Soundgarden. They didn't need to cultivate an image or get by on their looks either.

Don't get me wrong, there was some good music in the 80's but there was alot of image-conscious crap too. It's no coincidence that rock moved from that brand of rock to a more back-to-basics, earthy brand of the 90's. You may have loved that stuff, but the people were sick and tired of listening and seeing it.

As far as angst and self-pity, who are talking about? One or two bands. Do you think Nirvana's style represents everybody? I'd think you need to look into it a bit more in that case.

Anyhow, I think angst and self-pity are strong emotional themes that stay with a listener far longer than fun and games and big hair and over the top personalities. Show me a 'fun album' that can stand anywhere near an epic album such as Dark Side Of The Moon, which is all about angst, frustration, and all the darker themes.

One more thing, you want to know what 'grunge' has left us? It's left an indelible mark on rock and I can see it's influences in just about everywhere today in the rock scene. You are way too focused on the media portrayal of the music, and not the music itself. I find it a little ridiculous that this is your argument considering the origins of these bands were very modest and local and the bands eschewed the very MTV formula you seem to hate as well. Knowing what I know about these bands, I just don't think that argument holds.

 

[Big Generator]

Well, to my ears Pearl Jam and Soundgarden drew so heavily from 70s they can hardly be said to consitute a 'new' musical movement.

I diagree that 'self-pity' is a strong emotional theme. Self-pity is a mental attitude or perspective. For all my love of 'fun' bands, I can still respond to authentic sadness or grief in music. But I just didn't hear that much in the grunge era.

Yes, these bands started in a modest and local way. But which rock band didn't?

I agree that grunge has left its mark - as I said, it helped to create a new formula for arena rock which we can hear endlessly today. The main difference between this formula and that of glorious mid-80s arena rock is that 'alternative' rock pretends it's real and honest and written during the dark night of the soul. Whereas it's just as posturing and commercially-minded as anything 'hair bands' gave us.

 

[newdawnfades]

Well, to my ears Pearl Jam and Soundgarden drew so heavily from 70s they can hardly be said to consitute a 'new' musical movement.

I can look at any new movement in rock and pick apart their influences. If your point is that they had influences, point noted. If you are saying that PJ and Soundgarden constitue nothing more than a carbon copy then i'd say you are truly crazy.

I diagree that 'self-pity' is a strong emotional theme. Self-pity is a mental attitude or perspective.

There's no strong emotional component to self-pity?? Are you kidding me? We might need to rewrite pyschology texts all over the world if you're right. Why do you think hundreds of thousands of people each year SEE therapists? Self-pity is a universal human emotion. Heck i'd be willing to bet over the past couple of days you felt sorry for yourself a few times. I am baffled how you don't think that would make good material for music. I got to go back and look at all the great songs throughout the years that involved self-pity. There are alot of them.

For all my love of 'fun' bands, I can still respond to authentic sadness or grief in music. But I just didn't hear that much in the grunge era.

Are you implying that 'self-pity' somehow isn't 'authentic'? I'd be interesting in hearing this rationale.

I thought your argument in this thread was that grunge was just too dark, too angst-ridden. Now you are saying you don't hear much sadness and grief in grunge. There are boatloads of tunes about grief in sadness in the 90's. I have to debate myself on whether to create a list for you here because there's so many.

Yes, these bands started in a modest and local way. But which rock band didn't?

80's hair bands and modesty. Sure.

I agree that grunge has left its mark - as I said, it helped to create a new formula for arena rock which we can hear endlessly today. The main difference between this formula and that of glorious mid-80s arena rock is that 'alternative' rock pretends it's real and honest and written during the dark night of the soul. Whereas it's just as posturing and commercially-minded as anything 'hair bands' gave us.

That's what I don't get about you. You say it's commercially-minded. Give me some examples. You are just throwing out opinions and it's just coming off as if you really don't know the music or the bands very well.

Pearl Jam went to court for years to fight Ticketmaster's monopoly and high priced ticket sales. They refused to appear in any more videos in MTV after their initial album.

Nirvana was SO COMMERCIAL that they didn't play any of their hits during their Unplugged session. Instead they had the ego to do just a bunch of covers of bands they thought everybody should know more about.

Most of the local bands came up with small independent record companies such as Sub Pop, not the behemoths that routinely scour the bigger cities. The Seattle rock scene is an isolated, local culture with it's own distinct character. 80's Hair Rock came primarily out of L.A., and has always been wired straight into the image-is-everything recording industry.

America was so oblivious to the burgeoning scene in Seattle that it took several media pieces from British newspapers for the US to get a clue.

Then they came in and lumped all the bands into this 'grunge' phenomenon, which we really could care less about. Grunge is not a Seattle phenomenon, it's what people like you use to talk about our music scene in the 90's. That's where your head is stuck. All you know is that Nirvana hit it big and that's when it all began right? The scene was been building well into the early 80's, but I wouldn't expect you to know that because the national media didn't cover that.

It wasn't all angst and self-pity, it was actually FUN too. We can't help that the media grabbed onto Nirvana and flannel shirts and the nation ate it up. Just by the very fact that you think that 'grunge' is all about angst and self-pity tells me that you really haven't looked beyond the obvious.

Rent the movie "Hype!". It will give you a clear picture of the music.

 

[Big Generator]

"I can look at any new movement in rock and pick apart their influences. If your point is that they had influences, point noted. If you are saying that PJ and Soundgarden constitue nothing more than a carbon copy then i'd say you are truly crazy."

No I didn't say they were a carbon copy. But equally I don't think the early 90s bands were as radical or 'fresh' as the myth about them might suggest. It certainly was nowhere near as ground-breaking and revolutionary as the acid house movement in the late 80s/early 90s.

"There's no strong emotional component to self-pity?? Are you kidding me? We might need to rewrite pyschology texts all over the world if you're right. Why do you think hundreds of thousands of people each year SEE therapists? Self-pity is a universal human emotion. Heck i'd be willing to bet over the past couple of days you felt sorry for yourself a few times. I am baffled how you don't think that would make good material for music. I got to go back and look at all the great songs throughout the years that involved self-pity. There are alot of them."

Actually, I haven't felt sorry for myself the last few days. But I have experienced massive self-pity in the past. It was connected to my emotional state - but the self-pity wasn't an emotion in itself. It was a psychological perspective....a 'victim mentality'....and like the bands who revel in this attitude, it was pretty unattractive.


"Are you implying that 'self-pity' somehow isn't 'authentic'? I'd be interesting in hearing this rationale."

I reckon most of the time self-pity is a warped version of the truth. It's a type of sickness....


"I thought your argument in this thread was that grunge was just too dark, too angst-ridden. Now you are saying you don't hear much sadness and grief in grunge. There are boatloads of tunes about grief in sadness in the 90's. I have to debate myself on whether to create a list for you here because there's so many."

Yes - of course there was some genuine songs about sadness and grief - but equally there were - and - are "boatloads" of tunes where the 'misery' seems motivated by fashion and marketing.


80's hair bands and modesty. Sure.

I'm not suggesting they were modest in ambition. But they - like the 'serious' and 'intelligent' grunge acts - had to play some crappy venues in their early days.

"That's what I don't get about you. You say it's commercially-minded. Give me some examples. You are just throwing out opinions and it's just coming off as if you really don't know the music or the bands very well.

Pearl Jam went to court for years to fight Ticketmaster's monopoly and high priced ticket sales. They refused to appear in any more videos in MTV after their initial album."

What a noble stance to take...after the millions arrived in the bank account.

"Nirvana was SO COMMERCIAL that they didn't play any of their hits during their Unplugged session. Instead they had the ego to do just a bunch of covers of bands they thought everybody should know more about."

Kurt Cobain had no ego? Interesting...

No...Nirvana didn't play "Smells Like Teen Spirit"...on that MTV show with millions of viewers around the world.

"Most of the local bands came up with small independent record companies such as Sub Pop, not the behemoths that routinely scour the bigger cities. The Seattle rock scene is an isolated, local culture with it's own distinct character. 80's Hair Rock came primarily out of L.A., and has always been wired straight into the image-is-everything recording industry."

Despite the insular nature of the Seattle scene, Nirvana ditched Sub Pop...and signed to Geffen in Los Angeles.

"America was so oblivious to the burgeoning scene in Seattle that it took several media pieces from British newspapers for the US to get a clue."

No argument there...

"Then they came in and lumped all the bands into this 'grunge' phenomenon, which we really could care less about. Grunge is not a Seattle phenomenon, it's what people like you use to talk about our music scene in the 90's. That's where your head is stuck. All you know is that Nirvana hit it big and that's when it all began right? The scene was been building well into the early 80's, but I wouldn't expect you to know that because the national media didn't cover that."

People like me? All I know... Amazing how you've got to know me so well in the last day or two. Yes - of course I knew that grunge was building from the moment the US finally cottoned on to UK punk in the early 80s. I also know that this vibrant, alternative scene leapt straight into the arms of the Man at the first sight of a cheque-book. And then - after major record company promotion and several stadium tours - they all started whining about being 'mispresented' by the media.

"It wasn't all angst and self-pity, it was actually FUN too. We can't help that the media grabbed onto Nirvana and flannel shirts and the nation ate it up. Just by the very fact that you think that 'grunge' is all about angst and self-pity tells me that you really haven't looked beyond the obvious."

Fun for you maybe...

"Rent the movie "Hype!". It will give you a clear picture of the music."

I will. Thanks for the tip.

 

[AboutAGirl]

And what has Grunge left us with? What did all that angst and self-pity achieve? Nothing. Other than an 'alternative' formula for the production line.

I think that is unfair. What did hair metal leave us? What did Mozart leave us? What grunge left us is a handful of spectacular bands who played varied styles of rock music, brought back some of the primitive power and beauty of rock, and sang songs that are poignant and touching, and remain famous & loved with hundreds of people. And how can you question the validity of people like Kurt Cobain who killed themsleves? Even if he was melodramatic, you'd have to be honestly melodramatic to kill yourself.

 

[Big Generator]

I think that is unfair. What did hair metal leave us? What did Mozart leave us? What grunge left us is a handful of spectacular bands who played varied styles of rock music, brought back some of the primitive power and beauty of rock, and sang songs that are poignant and touching, and remain famous & loved with hundreds of people. And how can you question the validity of people like Kurt Cobain who killed themsleves? Even if he was melodramatic, you'd have to be honestly melodramatic to kill yourself.

Cobain was on heroin...and 'honesty' and 'authenticity' are not high on the list of characteristics you find in a using addict. Unlike "melodramatic"...

 

[Big Generator]

Also...I actually can't stand most of the hair metal bands...Bon Jovi, Poison, Cinderella, Winger, etc. I suppose I'm harking back to the true golden age of music...early/mid-80s Journey, Foreigner, Reo Speedwagon, Yes, Kiss, Rush, Metallica, etc. So...if we continue this debate...this is the territory I'm comparing the 90s bands to.

 

[newdawnfades]

No I didn't say they were a carbon copy. But equally I don't think the early 90s bands were as radical or 'fresh' as the myth about them might suggest. It certainly was nowhere near as ground-breaking and revolutionary as the acid house movement in the late 80s/early 90s.

It was obviously fresh, but not necessarily radical. Being radical wasn't the point though, it was just good damn music that people could connect with.

I am not here to defend the 'myth'. If you have issues with the way the music was portrayed by the media then I really can't help you.

Actually, I haven't felt sorry for myself the last few days. But I have experienced massive self-pity in the past. It was connected to my emotional state - but the self-pity wasn't an emotion in itself.

I am not going to get nit-picky because psychology ruled 5 years of my life and I really know enough to call it as it's seen. Self-pity is a collection of emotions. It can be called a 'condition' it can be called alot of things. But i'm sure for the purposes of this classic rock forum you understand what I mean when we are talking about self-pity and the obvious emotions this particular word evokes. That's as far as i'm going to go with this specific topic.

It was a psychological perspective....a 'victim mentality'....and like the bands who revel in this attitude, it was pretty unattractive.

It's not designed to be 'attractive'. I could care less about whether it's attractive or not. All i'm worried about is whether the music is good.

I reckon most of the time self-pity is a warped version of the truth. It's a type of sickness....

Let's talk about Kurt Cobain here. It seems most of your issues have EXACTLY to do with Kurt. So why don't we cut to the chase, call spades as spades and talk about Kurt. Go ahead.

Yes - of course there was some genuine songs about sadness and grief - but equally there were - and - are "boatloads" of tunes where the 'misery' seems motivated by fashion and marketing.

Provide examples.

What a noble stance to take...after the millions arrived in the bank account.

This is too funny. You REALLY don't know Pearl Jam. I am not even going to waste another minute on this.

Kurt Cobain had no ego? Interesting...

He had an ego, no doubt, but that's not what motivated him to make music. Now let's take a look at many 80's hair bands. Just a perusal over the titles of many 80's songs.

My point was that if all Cobain wanted to do was cash in then he would have went about things differently. He took a risk, and said screw what people are expecting to hear, i'm going to play some lesser known tunes.

He could have fell flat on his face, but he had the confidence to do something different. He could have just pandered his hits to the audience. He WOULD HAVE if it was all about the money.

Despite the insular nature of the Seattle scene, Nirvana ditched Sub Pop...and signed to Geffen in Los Angeles.

So your point is he 'sold out?' If he had sold out he wouldn't have made In Utero, but he would have stayed with the same slick production of Nevermind. He would have even went slicker.

People like me? All I know... Amazing how you've got to know me so well in the last day or two. Yes - of course I knew that grunge was building from the moment the US finally cottoned on to UK punk in the early 80s. I also know that this vibrant, alternative scene leapt straight into the arms of the Man at the first sight of a cheque-book. And then - after major record company promotion and several stadium tours - they all started whining about being 'mispresented' by the media.

How is this different from any 80's band? What specifically are you referring to in regards to bands whining? Give me specifics or I can't really address that.

Fun for you maybe...

What 'grunge' bands have you been exposed to, aside from Nirvana, PJ, Alice, and Soundgarden and all the one's that blew up?