Top Ten Phonies

[Big Generator]

That is precisely what I was doing! Well, actually it was more sarcasm than joke...

Let me go on the record right now as saying that I consider Kurt Cobain a very talented person who was deeply disturbed and needed help, and it's a shame he didn't get it.

What I was doing in my above post was applying Big Generator's "phoniness" idea to an artist who was not phony (Cobain), just as he was applying it to people like Van Morrison or Leonard Cohen, who definitely are not, have never been, and never will be phony.

Come on...I know a number of Cohen fans who will concede that pretentiousness is a flaw in his work. It can't be denied.

But still...I guess Cohen himself believed that he was a talented lyricist/poet...so maybe he was deluded rather than knowingly phoney?

 

[Music Wench]

There is a system in place, NDF. It's called NA...plus there are countless non-12 Step treatment centres too. There was help available for Cobain had he sought it out.

Mental illness isn't always as easy to treat as other illnesses. It's a constant struggle for many people and quite often, one of the symptoms of that particular illness is the inability to make rational decisions.

I'm not saying he was completely blameless but he was dealt a bad hand in the genetics department and as a person who has a loved one who suffers from depression I can tell you it's not just a matter of mind over matter. Even medications sometimes either don't work or stop working and need to be adjusted. Unfortunately, sometimes people afflicted with this disease don't realize it.

We're not talking alcohol and drug addiction here. Sure there was some of that in play and often times people who have mental illnesses resort to drugs and alcohol to try and mask or dull the symptoms. While it may be a part of the problem, it's not the cause of the mental illness. You can 12-step away alcohol or drug addiction but you can't do that with mental illness.

 

[newdawnfades]

Our system of taking care of mental illness is light years behind medical care. There's just no comparison. We have countless numbers of people roaming the streets who need treatment. We have people in prisons who don't get the care they need.

The biggest problem with mental illness is the social stigma that goes along with it. There is enormous pressure in everyone's daily lives to appear to have it together.

Imagine if I had taken 3 weeks off from my work because I needed heart surgery. Now imagine if I had to take 3 weeks off to deal with depression.

Guess which 3 weeks I could use my sick leave for and which 3 weeks I couldn't. Now guess how different my reception will be when I get back to work.

Mental disease should be on the same grounds as medical, but it's not. I have a feeling I know why Cobain didn't get help. Just think of what he would be admitting if he did. Just think of how he would be portrayed.

People don't feel like it's a choice because in many ways it's not.

 

[Reverend Rock]

Come on...I know a number of Cohen fans who will concede that pretentiousness is a flaw in his work. It can't be denied.

But still...I guess Cohen himself believed that he was a talented lyricist/poet...so maybe he was deluded rather than knowingly phoney?

Well, since he's so lousy, let's see you write a lyric as fabulous as "Suzanne" or "Joan of Arc".

 

[Big Generator]

Mental illness isn't always as easy to treat as other illnesses. It's a constant struggle for many people and quite often, one of the symptoms of that particular illness is the inability to make rational decisions.

I'm not saying he was completely blameless but he was dealt a bad hand in the genetics department and as a person who has a loved one who suffers from depression I can tell you it's not just a matter of mind over matter. Even medications sometimes either don't work or stop working and need to be adjusted. Unfortunately, sometimes people afflicted with this disease don't realize it.

We're not talking alcohol and drug addiction here. Sure there was some of that in play and often times people who have mental illnesses resort to drugs and alcohol to try and mask or dull the symptoms. While it may be a part of the problem, it's not the cause of the mental illness. You can 12-step away alcohol or drug addiction but you can't do that with mental illness.

Wasn't Kurt Cobain a heroin addict?

Also - isn't addiction a form of mental illness?

 

[Big Generator]

Well, since he's so lousy, let's see you write a lyric as fabulous as "Suzanne" or "Joan of Arc".

Is Suzanne the one with: "The sun pours down like honey"?

 

[Big Generator]

Our system of taking care of mental illness is light years behind medical care. There's just no comparison. We have countless numbers of people roaming the streets who need treatment. We have people in prisons who don't get the care they need.

The biggest problem with mental illness is the social stigma that goes along with it. There is enormous pressure in everyone's daily lives to appear to have it together.

Imagine if I had taken 3 weeks off from my work because I needed heart surgery. Now imagine if I had to take 3 weeks off to deal with depression.

Guess which 3 weeks I could use my sick leave for and which 3 weeks I couldn't. Now guess how different my reception will be when I get back to work.

Mental disease should be on the same grounds as medical, but it's not. I have a feeling I know why Cobain didn't get help. Just think of what he would be admitting if he did. Just think of how he would be portrayed.

People don't feel like it's a choice because in many ways it's not.

As a veteran of three rehabs myself...and the son of a schizophrenic mother...I totally agree with your point about the stigma and prejudice that prevents people from getting help...and can make it difficult for people to rehabiliate themselves after receiving help. And as you say this also applies to 'normal' people who are simply going through a bad time.

 

[algernon]

Is Suzanne the one with: "The sun pours down like honey"?

Ya gotta admit, Rev..this is kinda funny. If I hear "Suzanne" one more time I think I will scream. All the sophmore co-eds just loved that one and of course I feigned appreciation...but I put it in the never-ending song/ stop-watch mode bag with "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face."

 

[algernon]

...not that I wouldn't enjoy having her touch my perfect body with her mind!

 

[Martin Q. Blank]

Come on...I know a number of Cohen fans who will concede that pretentiousness is a flaw in his work. It can't be denied.

All art is "pretentious" by its very nature.