Top Ten Phonies

Big Generator

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Has anyone else been irritated over the years by the reverential attitude of critics to certain inauthentic and untalented artists? There seems to be a pantheon of artists most people feel obliged to like...artists who got lucky...or have been wily manipulators of the media....or have completely unfounded 'credibility'. In sort, artists who are phoney. Like these guys...


1) Van Morrison

The miserable boozehound releases a Christian record with Cliff Richard...career-death for anyone else...but Van gets away with it. No accusations of cheesiness or sell-out here. Why? It must be that the mythical status of "Astral Weeks" still protects Morrison after all these years....which must rank this album as the biggest con-job of all time because anyone with ears can tell it's a wailing and mumbling dud of a record.

2) David Byrne

He wears silly suits...can barely sing...and writes the odd catchy pop song...but the critical consensus? This is "art".

3) Tom Waits

Could any voice be more affected than this one? Well, maybe there is one...

4)...Nick Cave

I should have put this guy at Number One.

5) Mick Jagger

The businessman from London...who sings like he grew up in a shack in Alabama. Let it go, grandad.

6) Leonard Cohen

The poet and deep thinker...big with stoned 17 year olds in Toronto.

7) Lou Reed

"Look at me...I take hard drugs...I live on the mean streets of New York..I write poetry...I paint...I'm so experimental I even recorded a double-album of white noise...etc...etc."

8) Robert Fripp

It's like listening to Derek Smalls play Jazz Odyssey at the Puppet show.

9) Johnny Marr

In the UK, he is now being hailed as a Guitar Great...I hope this madness hasn't crossed the Atlantic yet.

10) Roger Waters

Another frustrated writer....whose heavy-handed, lugubrious lyrics and "concepts" nearly ruined Pink Floyd. Luckily, the genius of Gilmour shone through the phoniness.

Have I forgotten anyone?
 

Reverend Rock

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Van Morrison, Lou Reed, David Byrne, Roger Waters, and Leonard Cohen "untalented"? Sorry, but we don't share the same aesthetic here...

So where's Kurt Cobain in this list? He makes a fool of himself with suicide attempts, then succeeds, and a whole generation decides he's a rock god because he didn't have the guts to keep living and creating--what a fake...that's about the kind of standard you're setting here. You're just listing artists you don't like anyway, and trying to establish that they're fakes. But really they're just the artists you don't enjoy...why don't you just say "I don't like these people's music" instead.
 

Big Generator

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Oh, I disagree. Kurt Cobain was genuinely troubled and disturbed addict...and his music refelected that. Surely his suicide was the ultimate expression of authenticity in his case? There's no pretence or posturing or empty words when it comes to putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger. You really mean it.

Whereas Lou Reed...with all his chat about "Waiting For The Man" and so on...well, it seems to me that he was in love with the 'glamour' of addiction and suffering...but he didn't actually suffer that much at all. For him, I suspect it was a 'lifestyle choice'... material for the persona, the stage-act. Which in turn makes him a phoney.

Oh, and there's a big difference between artrists I think are phoney and those I simply don't like (although there is an overlap). Take Bob Dylan, Bob Marley and Bruce Springsteen...I don't like their records at all but they have genuine talent...and I reckon most people respond to the authenticity of these artists rather than the myth or the persona.
 

Big Generator

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Yes, an interesting one...an artist who has moved from authenticity to phoniness.

Mmmm...I feel another list coming on.
 

Big Generator

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Okay...Top Five Phonies (Who Used To Be Authentic)

1) Rod Stewart

Hell-raising egomaniac goes for nice and cosy makeover in the 80s.

2) Eric Clapton

Used to be a ground-breaking guitar legend...and then lost interest in the late 70s...and has been pretending to care ever since.

3) John Lennon

Cynical, witty lyricist...turns into inauthentic purveyor of peace and love..whilst shooting up smack and forgetting to call his son.

4) The Clash

Housing estate yobbos...suddenly become deep thinkers about left-wing geo-politics...whilst making millions from royalty cheques from the USA.

5) Sting

No explanation needed here.
 

Music Wench

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Everything in music is subjective.

I don't know who is genuine and who is phoney. I think Bruce Springsteen is genuine but many people who don't like him say he's a phoney. I think Bono is a fine example of what a rock star can accomplish in the world through music and influence but the "uninformed" seem to think he's just a big fake and rant and rail about him as if he killed their loved one or something.

Personally, I can't stand Rod Stewart's venture into the "classics" or whatever he calls the schmaltz he's been singing lately. I like schmaltz as much as the next person if it's sung by the right person. He ain't the right person.

However, he got older and perhaps he genuinely likes the music he's singing. People's tastes change as they get older.

Kurt Cobain is another example of someone who gets ragged on and misunderstood a lot. Personally I see a very disturbed young man with a lot of talent and potential who suffered a great deal with mental illness and in the end just couldn't deal with it any longer. I think he was genuine. I think he was the real deal and it's just a shame he couldn't get the kind of help he needed before it was too late.

It's all subjective. We all see the same facts but we all read them differently. Dwelling on the negative isn't my thing any way.
 

Big Generator

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I agree - it's totally subjective - but subjectivity is what fuels the debates on sites such as this one - otherwise we'd have nothing to discuss...we'd just exchange facts.

Also - MW - I know you don't "dwell" on the negative - but you have some robust negative opinions about certain acts you dislike. Recent examples include the Sex Pistols and System of a Down.

Now...the Bono question...I'd forgotten about him....well, I reckon he falls into the authentic camp. Sure, he can be earnest and pompous - but he's not pretending to be earnest and pompous - so I guess he's being himself. Also - he's a talented singer and song-writer and stadium rock suits his personality perfectly. So I think Bono is strictly non-phoney.
 

Music Wench

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Big Generator said:
I agree - it's totally subjective - but subjectivity is what fuels the debates on sites such as this one - otherwise we'd have nothing to discuss...we'd just exchange facts.

Also - MW - I know you don't "dwell" on the negative - but you have some robust negative opinions about certain acts you dislike. Recent examples include the Sex Pistols and System of a Down.

Now...the Bono question...I'd forgotten about him....well, I reckon he falls into the authentic camp. Sure, he can be earnest and pompous - but he's not pretending to be earnest and pompous - so I guess he's being himself. Also - he's a talented singer and song-writer and stadium rock suits his personality perfectly. So I think Bono is strictly non-phoney.
Of course we have negative opinions on things. I can't stand the Beach Boys and just don't get them. SOAD is too screechy for me. The Sex Pistols were pretty much just noise to me. I express when I don't like something. However, I also give credit where credit is due and don't understand why people want to diminish the accomplishments of artists who were clearly influential. The Beach Boys aren't my cup of tea but they certainly had an impact on the music world but I'm not interested in someone trying to convince me I should like them cause I've tried and I just can't. LOL Not that that's what you're doing, btw. It's just an example.

I have no problem with threads like this, really. I just prefer threads that exchange information and discussion. Debate is for the political/religious arena - for me personally any way. I think it's good you're here to take care of the musical side, though. :)
 

India_Blue

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Bands can be very influential and important in music history but that does not mean we have to like them. It's your own personal taste. We all have our own personal subjective opinions!
 

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