Sweaty
ThE OtHeR rAmOnE
For me it's a deffo no
King Crimson. Proto-metal?
- Thread starter joe
- Start date
I'll check back in there joe. Looking forward to your take on it.
I'll try to be short and concise on this though I'll probably wander and get muddled, which is nothing new.
First of all I'm not going into the concepts of metal as I think you'll probably know all about that.
In regards to me throwing KC into proto-metal, let me say first of all it is on the borderline and I have to admit that there is fanboyism involved here as well.
There is the fusion of mutated classical and jazz elements consistent to metal in many of King Crimson songs that though the blues based formula is almost non-existent which isn't the case for most of the proto-metal bands, especially in the early developement ('67-'72 as alot of the bands started to shed thier blues/psych influences) as well KC also implements the tritone in many of thier songs, "Larks' Tongue in Aspic" as one example. Also, alot of Fripps lyricism incorporates nihilism, doom, sci-fi and dark subjects and even the occult. Fripp does lay down some very technical, metallic power chords in unison with stabbing time sig shifts that IMO did influence alot of artists but didn't have the immediate impact and infuences in that time of the early/mid 70's as other protos like Sabbath and Zeppelin but would be influential in latter years but not so much on metal artists though some bands cite KC as an influence, Iron Maiden, Voivod, Tool, DT with a few others.
Now if there was a proto-prog metal sub-genre, I wouldn't haven't any reservations dropping KC in there as I would throw in Atomic Rooster and Night Sun. .
Really, I'd prefer not to have any sub-genre with proto in front of it.No question, not all of KC's albums from the time period of '69-'74 are what I would place in proto though I'd throw in ITCOTKC, Larks' and Red. Now, does one song off one album that I or some consider to be proto constitute that album to be proto. Again, that comes down to one's own opinion and criteria and for me an artists that has one or two proto tracks on only one album and/or within that artists discography doesn't necassary classify them in proto as other factors come into play like how much influence that particular band/tracks had on future artists. Tucky Buzzard comes to mind as IMO had only a couple of proto tracks on one of thier albums and how many bands did they have an influence on(?). Not too many I'd think.
TBH, I really don't have a problem with others including Dick Dale or the Kinks in thier own proto-metal list as I can appreciate thier contributions to metal but my criteria is the parameters from 1967-1975. Some may go back further and by all means.
I place LZ in proto but not in metal as I place Sabbath in both and don't consider an artist from some far away land like Brazil or in eastern Europe behind the iron curtain with one album with a few tracks or a couple of singles that could well be considered proto as I doubt they had very much impact and influence though they might of in thier immediate region.
I find it easier tagging many of these bands of proto with other labels such as metal, hard rock, heavy psych, heavy prog and Krautrock as that's what I have done for so long as this proto-metal sub-genre, from what I gather is a fairly new and TBH hadn't heard of it until Wolf's Proto thread, though I do understand what the purpose of this sub-genre is about...for the most part...I think.
I could go on...and I'm not about to argue with mine or anybody elses list. I'm out.
METALPRIEST
Senior Member
Interesting and good points man 
DaKillerWolf
Cosmic Time Warp Warrior
While I'm certainly not arguing for my interruption to be placed as the only interruption I have to say that from my perspective it is not so important to have influenced other bands as it is to have been a part of the sound that was just a bit short of being metal before metal reared it's ugly head ( and even after Sabbath ) if that makes sense: Budgie, Purple, Heavy Heep etc. but also Toad etc who may not have been well known at all. In other words, bands that brought the heavy sound up to the line that was then later crossed over by other bands and became METAL.
Also, the sound that I consider Proto-metal has no dateline. It just falls into a certain sound. One that can be a bit hard to describe to some but generally speaking the heavier of the heavy 70's bands are the blueprint, IMO.
Also, the sound that I consider Proto-metal has no dateline. It just falls into a certain sound. One that can be a bit hard to describe to some but generally speaking the heavier of the heavy 70's bands are the blueprint, IMO.
Well, I'm going to try to be show off here and eloborate a little more on proto-metal as I can't define/describe my interpretation/criteria of the sub-genre by a couple of paragraphs.
I have put alot of thought, research and of course listening to artists that are or that I thought might be fall in proto-metal on different occasions over the last year and half and have been listening to some of these artists for 30 years.
1967 is my floor for p-m with Vanilla Fudge's s/t debut, Are You Experienced from Jimi Hendrix and Cream's Disraeli Gears and into 1968 with Iron Butterfly's Heavy, Steppenwolf's s/t debut and Vincebus Eruptum and Insideoutside from Blue Cheer. IMO these artists have some of elements of metal and were huge in the developement of heavy metal and also very influential in the relative short term. Other artists/albums from 1968 like Truth from the Jeff Beck Group and Gun's s/t debut I don't place in p-m though I'm sure they did have some influence but from what I hear there isn't enough of the metal concepts and elements to throw them in though I'd place them in the hard rock sub-genre.
My ceiling is up to and includes 1975 as I take 1976 as the start of the (traditional/classic) heavy metal period [though Sabbath and to a lesser extent, Budgie in the early '70's I would place in heavy metal as well (there is some overlap with both these sub-genres IMO) and even go as far as to place Sabbath in traditional doom as well] with Judas Priest's Sad Wings Of Destiny, Rainbow's Rising and the Scorpions' Virgin Killer though Taken By Force(1977) might be the better example, amongst a few other artists as these artists/albums basically had no blues based formula to thier musical structure as well other artists were shedding the blues and psych elements (though again there is examples of bands that didn't. The Groundhogs being one example) in the previous few years. I'm not a musician (though I consider myself a kazoo virtuoso hehehe) though I have the basic understanding and can hear the basic structures, elements and sounds that consist in rock and can distinguish the difference between the basic blues scales and the what would be for the most part the typical traits of heavy metal with the riff in unison with tritone, chromatic progressive scales and included with all the other metal concepts like lyricism, imagery, tone, etc.
If had to refine my description of p-m I would raise the floor to the 1970 as it was really the year proto/heavy metal took a big step in the developement with Sabbath's s/t debut, Purple's In Rock and other lesser known artists like Sir Lord Baltimore, Stray, Lucifer's Friend, Atomic Rooster, May Blitz, just to mention a few. Here is some examples of where I'd place these artists/albums in sub-genres:
Deep Purple Mk.II - proto-metal, hard rock but not heavy metal.
Atomic Rooster - thier s/t debut I wouldn't place in p-m but I'd place Death Walks Behind You and In Hearing Of... in p-m along with hard rock, heavy prog and heavy psych but subsequent releases I wouldn't throw into p-m or heavy metal.
May Blitz - thier two releases I'd dump them in p-m, hard rock, heavy psych, blues rock.
Anyway, it might give some a better understanding using examples to try to get my points across as multi sub-genres better defines an artists style and sound IMO.
Like Wolf mentioned in another post that he doesn't consider prog bands to be place in proto-metal and for the most part I agree and some had a influence in the developement of metal in the short term and also in the long term. Yes and Genesis come to mind. Isn't Uriah heep and Atomic Rooster prog? J\k
I include King Crimson in my p-m list for various reasons I mentioned above in another post. "21st. Century Schizoid Man" from ITCOTCK I classify proto-metal and is the only track on the album that is p-m IMO and with that being said does one track from an album/artist constitute that album/artist to be placed in p-m? That depend's on one's own criteria/opinion/description of proto-metal. For me, in some cases it does and it doesn't.
Also, in regards to ITCOTCK, did it really have an immediate influence on proto/heavy metal bands? TBH, I really don't know as I wasn't in the music scene in the U.K. at that time but from what I have gathered that the album or KC in general didn't have much impact at that time.
Do these proto-metal artists or album(s) have to have some sort of impact or influence in the developement of (heavy) metal to classified to be p-m? I would say no as probably alot of these more obscure bands had no influence what so ever, though I do take in account the influence, if any, into the equation when surmizing an artist/album(s) to be/not to be placed in the sub-genre of proto-metal.
Again, it comes down to one's own opinions/description/criteria, doesn't it? Within reason of course. Proto-metal is a fairly new sub-genre from my understanding and I haven't found any in-depth/detailed description of the sub-genre (let me know if you do find one), though there is some simple, generic "wikipedia" versions that are very vague as oppossed to some other sub-genres that are very well described. So I guess one has to come up with thier own interpretation/description of it though I think that's the case with some of us with many, if not all sub-genres of rock,
I did this mostly for my own satisfication as I've wanted to put "it down on paper" for some time now and at one time was planning to do a somewhat of a similar definition/description for proto-metal at another site. If this helps out anyone better understand and for that matter, just finds it interesting. All the better. Take it for it's worth as I can longer do this typing thing.:mad
I have put alot of thought, research and of course listening to artists that are or that I thought might be fall in proto-metal on different occasions over the last year and half and have been listening to some of these artists for 30 years.
1967 is my floor for p-m with Vanilla Fudge's s/t debut, Are You Experienced from Jimi Hendrix and Cream's Disraeli Gears and into 1968 with Iron Butterfly's Heavy, Steppenwolf's s/t debut and Vincebus Eruptum and Insideoutside from Blue Cheer. IMO these artists have some of elements of metal and were huge in the developement of heavy metal and also very influential in the relative short term. Other artists/albums from 1968 like Truth from the Jeff Beck Group and Gun's s/t debut I don't place in p-m though I'm sure they did have some influence but from what I hear there isn't enough of the metal concepts and elements to throw them in though I'd place them in the hard rock sub-genre.
My ceiling is up to and includes 1975 as I take 1976 as the start of the (traditional/classic) heavy metal period [though Sabbath and to a lesser extent, Budgie in the early '70's I would place in heavy metal as well (there is some overlap with both these sub-genres IMO) and even go as far as to place Sabbath in traditional doom as well] with Judas Priest's Sad Wings Of Destiny, Rainbow's Rising and the Scorpions' Virgin Killer though Taken By Force(1977) might be the better example, amongst a few other artists as these artists/albums basically had no blues based formula to thier musical structure as well other artists were shedding the blues and psych elements (though again there is examples of bands that didn't. The Groundhogs being one example) in the previous few years. I'm not a musician (though I consider myself a kazoo virtuoso hehehe) though I have the basic understanding and can hear the basic structures, elements and sounds that consist in rock and can distinguish the difference between the basic blues scales and the what would be for the most part the typical traits of heavy metal with the riff in unison with tritone, chromatic progressive scales and included with all the other metal concepts like lyricism, imagery, tone, etc.
If had to refine my description of p-m I would raise the floor to the 1970 as it was really the year proto/heavy metal took a big step in the developement with Sabbath's s/t debut, Purple's In Rock and other lesser known artists like Sir Lord Baltimore, Stray, Lucifer's Friend, Atomic Rooster, May Blitz, just to mention a few. Here is some examples of where I'd place these artists/albums in sub-genres:
Deep Purple Mk.II - proto-metal, hard rock but not heavy metal.
Atomic Rooster - thier s/t debut I wouldn't place in p-m but I'd place Death Walks Behind You and In Hearing Of... in p-m along with hard rock, heavy prog and heavy psych but subsequent releases I wouldn't throw into p-m or heavy metal.
May Blitz - thier two releases I'd dump them in p-m, hard rock, heavy psych, blues rock.
Anyway, it might give some a better understanding using examples to try to get my points across as multi sub-genres better defines an artists style and sound IMO.
Like Wolf mentioned in another post that he doesn't consider prog bands to be place in proto-metal and for the most part I agree and some had a influence in the developement of metal in the short term and also in the long term. Yes and Genesis come to mind. Isn't Uriah heep and Atomic Rooster prog? J\k
I include King Crimson in my p-m list for various reasons I mentioned above in another post. "21st. Century Schizoid Man" from ITCOTCK I classify proto-metal and is the only track on the album that is p-m IMO and with that being said does one track from an album/artist constitute that album/artist to be placed in p-m? That depend's on one's own criteria/opinion/description of proto-metal. For me, in some cases it does and it doesn't.
Also, in regards to ITCOTCK, did it really have an immediate influence on proto/heavy metal bands? TBH, I really don't know as I wasn't in the music scene in the U.K. at that time but from what I have gathered that the album or KC in general didn't have much impact at that time.
Do these proto-metal artists or album(s) have to have some sort of impact or influence in the developement of (heavy) metal to classified to be p-m? I would say no as probably alot of these more obscure bands had no influence what so ever, though I do take in account the influence, if any, into the equation when surmizing an artist/album(s) to be/not to be placed in the sub-genre of proto-metal.
Again, it comes down to one's own opinions/description/criteria, doesn't it? Within reason of course. Proto-metal is a fairly new sub-genre from my understanding and I haven't found any in-depth/detailed description of the sub-genre (let me know if you do find one), though there is some simple, generic "wikipedia" versions that are very vague as oppossed to some other sub-genres that are very well described. So I guess one has to come up with thier own interpretation/description of it though I think that's the case with some of us with many, if not all sub-genres of rock,
I did this mostly for my own satisfication as I've wanted to put "it down on paper" for some time now and at one time was planning to do a somewhat of a similar definition/description for proto-metal at another site. If this helps out anyone better understand and for that matter, just finds it interesting. All the better. Take it for it's worth as I can longer do this typing thing.:mad
Lynch
Here for the cookies and the tunes
Sure. KC is as much of a proto-metal band as Jethro Tull is.
How many albums by KC have you listened to Riff?
If you listen to Starless And Bible Black and Red there is some tracks that are heavy and metallic. Is it heavy(proto) metal? That comes down to what you hear.
