ladyislingering
retired
Oh god, Hep.
I think I just died.
That thing is beautiful.
I think I just died.
That thing is beautiful.
Tell us about your stereo!
- Thread starter Hepcat
- Start date
Hepcat
retired
So did you buy a new turntable?
Yes, I have a turntable now, a CEC BD-2200. It is not brand new but works just fine. It has a new Audio-Technica cartridge an needle and a new belt.
Lynch
Here for the cookies and the tunes
Alright, I've bitten my tongue long enough on this site that I gotta let loose some howls of laughter... not at anyone in particular here, but just at a certain mindset that some people have. It's nothing recent, but as time goes on and technology gets better and better, the though process (to me) become all the more laughable.
Disclaimer1, I haven't read through every single post in this thread, just skimmed over some of it
Disclaimer2, as I said above, I'm not singling out anyone, picking on anyone, etc. I'm simply stating my own opinion of a certain audio mindset that some have. Feel free to throw rocks at your leisure.
What mindset is it that I'm talking about? The mindset that Records, LPs, Wax, Vinyl, etc... whatever name you prefer to use... that these relics sound better than digital recordings and pressings.
I see people that spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on their stereo equipment. When they do this, they aren't typically buying preamps, receivers, etc from the 1970's or 1980s. No, they are spending current earned money for current technology .... and then they go and include a turntable to play their LPs, which there's nothing wrong with that (IMHO), however some refusing to even purchase a CD player or get something cheap and crummy to play CDs on on because "CDs sound like shit".
Huh? How do CDs sound like shit? the only CDs I've seen (heard) that sound like crap are ones that people make themselves from songs they download off of the internet at bit rates ranging from 64k to 320. Different rippers, different software used, etc. Yeah, that makes for a shitty CD. But an official CD, released by the record company compared to an LP? There's no comparison at all.
An example... I grew up with Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon. Knew the album frontwards and backwards. Listened to it a lot. Loved everything about it. Had it on vinyl. Had it on cassette. When I bought my first new stereo with a CD player in it (late 80's), I also bought DSOTM on CD. First time I listened to it I was BLOWN away. I heard little things on that album I had never ever heard before in my life, particularly side one. The sound quality was uncomparable to LPs and cassettes. The more titles I (re)purchased in CD format, the more titles that fell into this same category. Smaller, more compact, more durable, portable, etc. Whats not to love!?
I've been a DJ since the late 80's. I knew other DJs back then as well as other DJs well into the 2000's that had a similar opinion that vinyl was better, but not a single one could ever give me a solid example of why. "It has a warmer feel to it". Um.. ok, if by warmer you mean "crackly, less crisp, and generally lower quality", then yeah I agree it's ~warmer~. I embraced CDs once it became obvious they weren't going away. CD quality NOW compared to 20 years ago? I think it's better. The general recording (or pressing) is basicallly the same, but the techniques have improved over the years.
Is it a matter of preference? of course it is, although I just don't understand why some people desire it. The same people don't watch VHS over DVD on console televisions vs widescreen LCDs hanging from their walls. They don't put super-unleaded gas into their 1978 Ford Pinto, but they'll put it into their Mercedes. When they go to a movie theater, they typically don't go to the shittiest, oldest theater in town with the projectors from 1972, but rather the biggest, best and loudest digital DTS theaters. They don't take the high-tech stereos out of their brand new cars and replace them with 8-track decks from cars long gone. Yet when they go home and put on music, they'll dust off these 12 inch albums, that even on really nice turntables with spendy needles, still crackle, hiss, etc trying to convince me that it just sounds better.
I understand some people don't like change and resist it anywhere possible. Others simply refuse to change. Then there is also a younger generation that is getting into vinyl , and I think that's cool... up to the point where they join some of the goofieness of LP > CD.
I'm still waiting for these people to turn in their motorcycles and go back to riding horses... and trade in their cars for covered wagons... all in the name that things were much more pure 'back in the day'.
Feel free to try and convince me. Perhaps there are people here that can do it. I've yet to meet anyone face to face that can convince me otherwise, but I'm not 100% close minded to the prospect that I could be wrong. (99% maybe
)
Disclaimer1, I haven't read through every single post in this thread, just skimmed over some of it
Disclaimer2, as I said above, I'm not singling out anyone, picking on anyone, etc. I'm simply stating my own opinion of a certain audio mindset that some have. Feel free to throw rocks at your leisure.
What mindset is it that I'm talking about? The mindset that Records, LPs, Wax, Vinyl, etc... whatever name you prefer to use... that these relics sound better than digital recordings and pressings.
I see people that spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on their stereo equipment. When they do this, they aren't typically buying preamps, receivers, etc from the 1970's or 1980s. No, they are spending current earned money for current technology .... and then they go and include a turntable to play their LPs, which there's nothing wrong with that (IMHO), however some refusing to even purchase a CD player or get something cheap and crummy to play CDs on on because "CDs sound like shit".
Huh? How do CDs sound like shit? the only CDs I've seen (heard) that sound like crap are ones that people make themselves from songs they download off of the internet at bit rates ranging from 64k to 320. Different rippers, different software used, etc. Yeah, that makes for a shitty CD. But an official CD, released by the record company compared to an LP? There's no comparison at all.
An example... I grew up with Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon. Knew the album frontwards and backwards. Listened to it a lot. Loved everything about it. Had it on vinyl. Had it on cassette. When I bought my first new stereo with a CD player in it (late 80's), I also bought DSOTM on CD. First time I listened to it I was BLOWN away. I heard little things on that album I had never ever heard before in my life, particularly side one. The sound quality was uncomparable to LPs and cassettes. The more titles I (re)purchased in CD format, the more titles that fell into this same category. Smaller, more compact, more durable, portable, etc. Whats not to love!?
I've been a DJ since the late 80's. I knew other DJs back then as well as other DJs well into the 2000's that had a similar opinion that vinyl was better, but not a single one could ever give me a solid example of why. "It has a warmer feel to it". Um.. ok, if by warmer you mean "crackly, less crisp, and generally lower quality", then yeah I agree it's ~warmer~. I embraced CDs once it became obvious they weren't going away. CD quality NOW compared to 20 years ago? I think it's better. The general recording (or pressing) is basicallly the same, but the techniques have improved over the years.
Is it a matter of preference? of course it is, although I just don't understand why some people desire it. The same people don't watch VHS over DVD on console televisions vs widescreen LCDs hanging from their walls. They don't put super-unleaded gas into their 1978 Ford Pinto, but they'll put it into their Mercedes. When they go to a movie theater, they typically don't go to the shittiest, oldest theater in town with the projectors from 1972, but rather the biggest, best and loudest digital DTS theaters. They don't take the high-tech stereos out of their brand new cars and replace them with 8-track decks from cars long gone. Yet when they go home and put on music, they'll dust off these 12 inch albums, that even on really nice turntables with spendy needles, still crackle, hiss, etc trying to convince me that it just sounds better.
I understand some people don't like change and resist it anywhere possible. Others simply refuse to change. Then there is also a younger generation that is getting into vinyl , and I think that's cool... up to the point where they join some of the goofieness of LP > CD.
I'm still waiting for these people to turn in their motorcycles and go back to riding horses... and trade in their cars for covered wagons... all in the name that things were much more pure 'back in the day'.
Feel free to try and convince me. Perhaps there are people here that can do it. I've yet to meet anyone face to face that can convince me otherwise, but I'm not 100% close minded to the prospect that I could be wrong. (99% maybe
)
Lynch
Here for the cookies and the tunes
And to reitterate, if you like vinyl... cool 
My little soapbox rant above isn't mean to convince anyone to turn in their wax for something else. It's actually more of a question of "please help me to understand this concept as it makes no sense to me"
And yeah, as I admited right off the bat, I do laugh at the whole thing as well.
My little soapbox rant above isn't mean to convince anyone to turn in their wax for something else. It's actually more of a question of "please help me to understand this concept as it makes no sense to me"And yeah, as I admited right off the bat, I do laugh at the whole thing as well.
Craig in Indy
Your cool Uncle
Hmm...where to begin...
First let me say I agree with you completely when you talk about the advantages of most modern technology. Only someone who's a fool for nostalgia (or in some other way a genuine Luddite) would disagree with your comments re movie theaters, car stereos, etc. And when it comes to LPs I am most definitely not among those who say, in so many words, that the crackles and pops give them the warm fuzzies. And make no mistake there are plenty of people who say just that sort of thing.
But even so, I am an unapologetic, if somewhat conditional, champion of analog music reproduction. Don't get me wrong, though - there are so many disadvantages and inconveniences associated with LP playback, that nothing would make me happier than to be able to jettison turntables and LPs from my system completely. LPs are notoriously fragile and subject to warping and scratching, even from simple dust. They have a tendency to be pressed off-center, causing nausea-inducing wow during playback. You have to jump up out of your listening chair every 20 minutes to stop them or change to another disc. And I get absolutely no joy out of the ritual of cleaning, preening and other prep that's necessary to play and preserve them. Plus they take up tons of space to store them, and their tiny spines mean anyone over 50 probably doesn't have good enough eyesight to find the record they want to play among all the others on the shelf. No, if Sony's old original CD advertising slogan of "perfect sound, forever" were only true, I'd be one happy old man.
But I put up with all of the LPs' associated crap because I love the sound they're capable of. Note I didn't say a flat-out "I love their sound." Like all recorded audio media, there are good and bad examples of the craft. That holds true for every format that's ever existed (even if the bar for "good" has risen since the days of Edison's wax cylinders). But at their best, played on really good equipment, they sound better to me than the best digital recordings ever have.
"Better" is a hard nut to crack, though, when it comes to describing in words what I and others hear with these things. At its essence, "better" means to me that in one or more ways, the sound is more like live music created in a real space. I know next to nothing about the detailed physics of digital music recording and playback, so I can't participate in any meaningful discussion of why things sound the way they do on CDs, but I know that when both formats of an otherwise identical recording are compared side by side, 9 times out of 10 the analog version will sound more real to my ears. The sound will have more three-dimensional qualities and will sound as though it's been created by a real instrument or a real voice. I will hear a "sound stage" that has not only height and width components, but front-to-back depth as well. Subtle ambient sounds will be present that give me some hint of the nature of the space in which the recording was made. All of this contribute to what audiophiles refer to as a sense of "air" in the recording.
Older analog recordings that were transferred to CD at the start of the digital era (all of those AAD and ADD spars code albums) suffered on all of those counts. They created flat, two-dimensional sound stages that were like looking at a big, flat photograph of the music. Additionally they were harsh and grainy in sound, with a hard, shrill and glassy glare that made them almost unbearable to listen to. And the early digital recordings (with the DDD spars code) were not much better. I don't know if it was an issue with sampling rates, or time clock/jitter problems or what, but they weren't much fun to subject your ears to.
But let me also say that digital audio recording and reproduction has improved vastly, especially over the last 8 or 10 years. There are some startlingly good CDs out there now (and the hi-res formats, if they ever survive, are even better). All you have to do to hear how bad early CDs were is compare any of those that have undergone a good remastering to their original issue counterparts. Again, there are still some good ones and still some bad ones. Right now, the majority of CDs I buy sound pretty darned good. There will still be a clunker now and then, but I have many, many discs in my collection that are great. And I think it's telling that out of the 20 or so LPs I've bought in the last 20 years, only 2 or 3 of them were new issues - the others are all reissues of older records. By that I mean I don't continue to buy new music on LP just because it may be available in that format. I only do it if the CD version is bad, or if I hear great things about the vinyl version. So in that regard I'm definitely not a fool for nostalgic technology, just for its own sake.
I guess then for me it all boils down to these points:
1) The biggest problems with digital were early in its history.
2) CDs win the convenience argument hands-down.
3) When I compare, I hear subtle, but definitely audible differences in factors that contribute to what I consider a recording's sense of "realism."
4) There will always be exceptional recordings, and crappy recordings, in either format, but if I were to make a generalization, it is this: on my sound system, I have never heard a digital recording that sounds as real to me as its analog counterpart.
First let me say I agree with you completely when you talk about the advantages of most modern technology. Only someone who's a fool for nostalgia (or in some other way a genuine Luddite) would disagree with your comments re movie theaters, car stereos, etc. And when it comes to LPs I am most definitely not among those who say, in so many words, that the crackles and pops give them the warm fuzzies. And make no mistake there are plenty of people who say just that sort of thing.
But even so, I am an unapologetic, if somewhat conditional, champion of analog music reproduction. Don't get me wrong, though - there are so many disadvantages and inconveniences associated with LP playback, that nothing would make me happier than to be able to jettison turntables and LPs from my system completely. LPs are notoriously fragile and subject to warping and scratching, even from simple dust. They have a tendency to be pressed off-center, causing nausea-inducing wow during playback. You have to jump up out of your listening chair every 20 minutes to stop them or change to another disc. And I get absolutely no joy out of the ritual of cleaning, preening and other prep that's necessary to play and preserve them. Plus they take up tons of space to store them, and their tiny spines mean anyone over 50 probably doesn't have good enough eyesight to find the record they want to play among all the others on the shelf. No, if Sony's old original CD advertising slogan of "perfect sound, forever" were only true, I'd be one happy old man.
But I put up with all of the LPs' associated crap because I love the sound they're capable of. Note I didn't say a flat-out "I love their sound." Like all recorded audio media, there are good and bad examples of the craft. That holds true for every format that's ever existed (even if the bar for "good" has risen since the days of Edison's wax cylinders). But at their best, played on really good equipment, they sound better to me than the best digital recordings ever have.
"Better" is a hard nut to crack, though, when it comes to describing in words what I and others hear with these things. At its essence, "better" means to me that in one or more ways, the sound is more like live music created in a real space. I know next to nothing about the detailed physics of digital music recording and playback, so I can't participate in any meaningful discussion of why things sound the way they do on CDs, but I know that when both formats of an otherwise identical recording are compared side by side, 9 times out of 10 the analog version will sound more real to my ears. The sound will have more three-dimensional qualities and will sound as though it's been created by a real instrument or a real voice. I will hear a "sound stage" that has not only height and width components, but front-to-back depth as well. Subtle ambient sounds will be present that give me some hint of the nature of the space in which the recording was made. All of this contribute to what audiophiles refer to as a sense of "air" in the recording.
Older analog recordings that were transferred to CD at the start of the digital era (all of those AAD and ADD spars code albums) suffered on all of those counts. They created flat, two-dimensional sound stages that were like looking at a big, flat photograph of the music. Additionally they were harsh and grainy in sound, with a hard, shrill and glassy glare that made them almost unbearable to listen to. And the early digital recordings (with the DDD spars code) were not much better. I don't know if it was an issue with sampling rates, or time clock/jitter problems or what, but they weren't much fun to subject your ears to.
But let me also say that digital audio recording and reproduction has improved vastly, especially over the last 8 or 10 years. There are some startlingly good CDs out there now (and the hi-res formats, if they ever survive, are even better). All you have to do to hear how bad early CDs were is compare any of those that have undergone a good remastering to their original issue counterparts. Again, there are still some good ones and still some bad ones. Right now, the majority of CDs I buy sound pretty darned good. There will still be a clunker now and then, but I have many, many discs in my collection that are great. And I think it's telling that out of the 20 or so LPs I've bought in the last 20 years, only 2 or 3 of them were new issues - the others are all reissues of older records. By that I mean I don't continue to buy new music on LP just because it may be available in that format. I only do it if the CD version is bad, or if I hear great things about the vinyl version. So in that regard I'm definitely not a fool for nostalgic technology, just for its own sake.
I guess then for me it all boils down to these points:
1) The biggest problems with digital were early in its history.
2) CDs win the convenience argument hands-down.
3) When I compare, I hear subtle, but definitely audible differences in factors that contribute to what I consider a recording's sense of "realism."
4) There will always be exceptional recordings, and crappy recordings, in either format, but if I were to make a generalization, it is this: on my sound system, I have never heard a digital recording that sounds as real to me as its analog counterpart.
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My Mullet hurts just from reading Lynch's critique and Craig's answer.
I have to say that a poorly produced/engineered album sounds lacking in any format, everything else we talk about is 100% dependent on the engineer doing a good job initially.
Lynch, I do agree that CD's are not as bad as everyone makes them to be, however there are some exceptions. Edgar Winter's album "They Only Come Out At Night", for example, the drum kit on the CD was pathetic, they managed to lose almost everything that made the album a masterpiece when it was recorded. I have the MFSL remastered CD now, but even though they usually do a great job it Still is not as good as the original vinyl edition. Same thing for ELP's debut, the old vinyl sounds better than the 2 digital copies I have listened to. Do I miss the background noise on old vinyl that has seen better days,,,absolutely not. Do I miss the "Shimmer" of the percussion off Santana's Abraxas when I play the CD and then listen to the stunningly well done vinyl album, yes. There is no black and white answer, Craig is right, early CD's were rushed to market, and suffered as a result. The Remasters were an attempt to get things right for those of us that Do still like Hi-Fidelity sound reproduction, and they are getting better at the digital recording technology all the time.
I have one vinyl album that is better than Any CD I own, I'll take some photos and post them tomorrow, if all vinyl albums were recorded to the standards of this record, CD's would never have stood a chance.
Oh and Hep old buddy,,,where is the picture of Your system you said you would post it after Christmas was over?
I have to say that a poorly produced/engineered album sounds lacking in any format, everything else we talk about is 100% dependent on the engineer doing a good job initially.
Lynch, I do agree that CD's are not as bad as everyone makes them to be, however there are some exceptions. Edgar Winter's album "They Only Come Out At Night", for example, the drum kit on the CD was pathetic, they managed to lose almost everything that made the album a masterpiece when it was recorded. I have the MFSL remastered CD now, but even though they usually do a great job it Still is not as good as the original vinyl edition. Same thing for ELP's debut, the old vinyl sounds better than the 2 digital copies I have listened to. Do I miss the background noise on old vinyl that has seen better days,,,absolutely not. Do I miss the "Shimmer" of the percussion off Santana's Abraxas when I play the CD and then listen to the stunningly well done vinyl album, yes. There is no black and white answer, Craig is right, early CD's were rushed to market, and suffered as a result. The Remasters were an attempt to get things right for those of us that Do still like Hi-Fidelity sound reproduction, and they are getting better at the digital recording technology all the time.
I have one vinyl album that is better than Any CD I own, I'll take some photos and post them tomorrow, if all vinyl albums were recorded to the standards of this record, CD's would never have stood a chance.
Oh and Hep old buddy,,,where is the picture of Your system you said you would post it after Christmas was over?
Hepcat
retired
Lord Grendel said:
Soon, soon! My technical adviser tells me that we must wait for a sunny day for best results though. I seem to remember that was the problem the last time I breached the topic.
First I'll post "before" pictures prior to transferring all my LPs into a new cabinet with more storage capacity. Unfortunately I don't have $12,500 burning a hole in my pocket for something like the Atocha I pictured above. I'll then post pictures again once I have my new storage system in place.
I'll also avail myself of the opportunity provided by the next sunny day to post pics of my the room and cabinets where my collectibles are stored. I'll conscript The MAN to help me show off these items. My lack of opposable thumbs means I'll need his help.
***:I must say that I kind of understand Lynch. In my particular case, I bought an used turntable that cost me around 100 dollars and the reason is that I have many old records most of them with 70s and 80s Romanian rock-folk artists never released on CD. And from time to time I buy old vinyls when I find them at very good prices. In my country new vinyl records are very expensive almost double the price of a CD. And, for me, it is also a little collector virus . I like to have a first print edition on vinyl although I already have the album on CD 
.
. I like to have a first print edition on vinyl although I already have the album on CD .
ladyislingering
retired
Everyone has actually stated their cases much more eloquently than I will, but here's a quick lowdown on why I prefer vinyl over CD:
1 - Vinyl captures more sound. There is a distinct sound of a needle on vinyl; it's warm, involving, intimate, soft. Sometimes, yes, there is surface noise; there ARE, however, loads of LPs in existence that were kept in such terrific condition that the noise is so minimal or nonexistent that you won't even notice it. No stereo remaster will ever sound the same (in terms of being absolutely true to the quality of the original recording) as the original state of the music in the format to which it was meant to be heard.
2 - Vinyl reminds me of the most incredibly happy times of my life. I'm young. I won't say how young (just know that I'm "old enough") because a lady never tells, but I'm old enough to remember the days when my parents used vinyl (and cassettes, respectively). I have a lot of their old LPs, which were kept nicely - a lot of really great classics in there, but it's just the whole memory of handling a large disc-like object; most of which I remember hearing as a child, or favourite albums I had pirated in MP3 format as a teenager I now have on vinyl. It's a nostalgia thing for me.
3 - I love having a full package. Vinyl sleeves are larger; inner sleeves show more detail. You actually have to handle this beautifully cumbersome object, AND you get to check out the album art as it was supposed to be seen. CDs, for me, are just too restrictive in that nature. They are convenient, and you can take them anywhere, but everything is so minimal and insignificant. As an artist, this bothers the living shit out of me. That, and since I never really caught on to the sex objects of my own generation (what in the world were all those girls going ga-ga loopy over?!) I do love to objectify the significantly more beautiful people on the sleeves of my records. (Insert deep girly sigh.)
4 - I love peculiar records. CDs don't have the chance to be truly peculiar at all most of the time; however, vinyl comes in loads of different colours; some bands released singles in such a manner, and who doesn't love to collect every available colour? Come on. It's a whole lot of fun. 12" singles? Yes! I have loads of them. They're essentially useless, but the packaging is usually really cool. Vinyl was just another level of creative outlet for some bands, back in the day, and still continues to be. I actually have a copy of Sparks' 2006 record "Hello Young Lovers" on screaming pink vinyl. It's awesome.
5 - Vinyl is the undying format. It's still being pressed, used, traded, bought, sold, collected, coveted, admired, used for artistic purposes, talked about amongst music snobs like myself, and other such great things. You can't. Get rid. Of vinyl. It's kind of like Keith Richards.
In short, that's why I have a huge vinyl obsession.
1 - Vinyl captures more sound. There is a distinct sound of a needle on vinyl; it's warm, involving, intimate, soft. Sometimes, yes, there is surface noise; there ARE, however, loads of LPs in existence that were kept in such terrific condition that the noise is so minimal or nonexistent that you won't even notice it. No stereo remaster will ever sound the same (in terms of being absolutely true to the quality of the original recording) as the original state of the music in the format to which it was meant to be heard.
2 - Vinyl reminds me of the most incredibly happy times of my life. I'm young. I won't say how young (just know that I'm "old enough") because a lady never tells, but I'm old enough to remember the days when my parents used vinyl (and cassettes, respectively). I have a lot of their old LPs, which were kept nicely - a lot of really great classics in there, but it's just the whole memory of handling a large disc-like object; most of which I remember hearing as a child, or favourite albums I had pirated in MP3 format as a teenager I now have on vinyl. It's a nostalgia thing for me.
3 - I love having a full package. Vinyl sleeves are larger; inner sleeves show more detail. You actually have to handle this beautifully cumbersome object, AND you get to check out the album art as it was supposed to be seen. CDs, for me, are just too restrictive in that nature. They are convenient, and you can take them anywhere, but everything is so minimal and insignificant. As an artist, this bothers the living shit out of me. That, and since I never really caught on to the sex objects of my own generation (what in the world were all those girls going ga-ga loopy over?!) I do love to objectify the significantly more beautiful people on the sleeves of my records. (Insert deep girly sigh.)
4 - I love peculiar records. CDs don't have the chance to be truly peculiar at all most of the time; however, vinyl comes in loads of different colours; some bands released singles in such a manner, and who doesn't love to collect every available colour? Come on. It's a whole lot of fun. 12" singles? Yes! I have loads of them. They're essentially useless, but the packaging is usually really cool. Vinyl was just another level of creative outlet for some bands, back in the day, and still continues to be. I actually have a copy of Sparks' 2006 record "Hello Young Lovers" on screaming pink vinyl. It's awesome.
5 - Vinyl is the undying format. It's still being pressed, used, traded, bought, sold, collected, coveted, admired, used for artistic purposes, talked about amongst music snobs like myself, and other such great things. You can't. Get rid. Of vinyl. It's kind of like Keith Richards.
In short, that's why I have a huge vinyl obsession.
