Songs That You Like For Their Production

aeroplane

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Wow. Claiming that the performance and sound quality were affected by the musicians' hard drug use is a "scapegoat"? Interesting allegation. Perhaps you could explain this. And perhaps you could tell us what specific aspects and components of the production you don't like -- of course Sixx is going to claim that I was a drug user, mainly because I embarrassed him in the pages of the New York Times Sunday Book Review.
We were all drug users of some sort in the 80"s, but do you think that perhaps there's a small difference between doing a few lines with the band after the session is over, and injecting heroin into your veins during the course of recording the album? Daily? And what about the approval of the final mixes by the principal individual in each group? Even if they were on the road, I'd send them the final mix before I went to mastering. I would not mix a record without a leading member of the band in attendance. It would be more productive if you and others on this forum who are so convinced that my records sound terrible could address these questions, and be specific about what made the production so unacceptable -- and why 40 million fans with no apparent taste bought 23 gold and platinum records over my 20-year career as a producer.

Just to me, those Crue albums sounded a little low budget and unfinished, which is ok for a demo but not what I am accustomed to hearing on a major label release.

That's what I didn't like about the production. Of course this is more noticeable on the lesser tracks that weren't singles. If I listen to their hit songs from those albums, I don't really notice the production as much. The better the song, the less I notice it. The worse the song, the more I do.

You may not enjoy reading what Lord Grendel and myself say. However, it works both ways. Regardless of what you might think, I don't particularly enjoy elaborating on what I don't like about recordings that you put a lot of time and hard work into.
 

aeroplane

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Interesting, again. Lord Grendel now writes that I'm saying all my bands wanted shitty sounding records. Brilliant.

Another poster says I was successful because I "had the opportunity" to work with some kickass bands. Who do you think signed half those bands, and how do you think I "got the opportunity" to work with the other half? Answer: They asked me. So the bands you think I served poorly were the same people who requested my involvement with their records. I've rarely seen such sniping on any serious music chat board -- and I have yet to see one post that actually discusses real components of real production. Are there any other actual producers in this forum? Your discussions of production seem to revolve around who likes what best, and not a wit more. Why not just have a top 100 list instead? By the way, I love these emoticons to my right.


I don't have any production background and am not an audiophile on the level of Lord Grendel.

My background is working in radio for nine years. It would involve sitting in a chair with headphones on for most or all of a broadcast listening to what I was putting out over the air for hours to a time.

When I wasn't broadcasting, I was constantly listening to music on discman's, in car stereos, on boomboxes, in video game systems, in PC's with cd playback, in "quality" home stereo set-ups and everything else in between. With all the music a radio station receives in a week, I was never caught up with it, so I had to listen to it wherever I could and wherever I was.

Doing all of this for a long time, I like to think helped me distinguish which albums sounded "better" than others from a production standpoint. At least my definition of "better."
Your work has sold millions of records. Whereas I might have sold "hundreds" of records in my years on the air. Maybe my definitions aren't all they are cracked up to be. If that's the case, then so be it.

At the end of the day, I spent nine years in radio trying as hard as I could to help groups sell records by playing them. You spent years producing bands, with the same goal in mind, trying to help them sell as many records as possible. It isn't about you, me or anybody else here. It isn't about anybody but the artists and their music.
 

aeroplane

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Thanks for all the thoughtful posts -- but I, too, might ask the same question -- why are you upset about my criticism of your criticism? I'm a big music fan, just like you. You say "we're a nice group of people", but several of you call my records "trash", and claim that many of the groups complain about me. Since I did 65 records, and 2 guys badmouthed me years after selling many millions of records we did together, it does seem that you're basing your opinion of the sound of my records on just these two guys. Check out the Producers' first LP, titled "The Producers". You'll hear something quite different. Check out Brownsville's version of Bo Diddley's "Who Do You Love?" , recorded in their manager's basement.... every band presents a different set of challenges. Most people I've explained the producer's role to consider it a greater accomplishment to have produced a hit Eagles record than a hit Motley Crue record. I disagree. Any "producer" could literally sleep through an entire recording of an Eagles album, and they'd still come out with a hit.Not so Motley Crue. The Eagles oozed with talent and seriousness of purpose. Not so MC. And in terms of supposing I may have critiqued music in the past, I was an A&R man with Epic Records for 12 years, the last 6 of which I was astaff producer, as well. I signed REO Speedwagon, Ted Nugent, Cheap Trick, Molly Hatchet and Boston. The bands I signed to Epic have sold over 150 million copies to date. Regrettably, A&R people did not participate in the profits, as they did starting in the late 80's. I can't complain, but sometimes I still do.Comparisons? Without a doubt there were producers who were far better than I. When I started, my role model was Glyn Johns. I spent time with, respected and revered George Martin. Tom Dowd, Jerry Wexler and Arif Mardin were heroes. Mike Chapman, Keith Forsey, Ted Templeman, Phil Ramone, Tony Visconti, Jimmy Miller -- all excellent and very inspiring to me. But when you ask why I get upset over criticism like yours? I left behind an MBA and an intended career as a captain of industry to go into rock and roll, because I loved it too much not to. I took a cut in salary. I spent 6 years in the trenches before I even got in the studio. This was my main career in life -- the most important thing to me. To be given the opportunity to help craft, shape and arrange the records that would be the soundtrack of millions of peoples' youth? And get paid for it, to boot? Wouldn't you be upset if someone made light of your legacy? I don't expect to be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, but I do have a drawer full of letters and emails from fans who wrote me unsolicited thank-yous and letters of praise. So when I'm referred by one of those fans to a music forum where comments are 100% negative of my work, I feel compelled to defend myself. Is this not a reasonable response?


Sure, it is reasonable but nobody is damning your career, man. History has shown that Motley Crue wasn't focused until they hooked up with Bob Rock.

However, your name happens to be on their albums from the early days. If they were lazy, unfocused and unreliable in the studio sometimes, there is no reason you couldn't have laid down the law on them. As you said, they weren't anybody special when you were first working with them, so what were they going to do about it if you set their ass straight? None of them were in any position to push you around like a Bruce Springsteen or Robert Plant could, someone who actually had a career already.

There are plenty of producers who won't tolerate that sort of crap. Maybe you had no choice in the matter, I don't know. None of us were there but you.
 

werm1000

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Good questions, Craig -- the only situation in which an arranger is evident, as far as I've seen, is the easy listening situation -- the older artists like Sinatra and Johnny Mathis, for instance. Jack Nitzsche arranged some great strings for Neil Young on the "Harvest" album, but I've come across very few arrangers in a pop or rock project. The producer should serve as the arranger, or he's not really a producer, in my opinion. In fact, the arranging function was the most important function I served in my sessions. In rehearsal, I'd suggest many changes -- in song structure (cut the intro in half, or get rid of the 3rd chorus, or move this to there) and in parts (in the bridge play the hi-hat cymbal instead of the ride cymbal, and play quarter notes instead of eighth notes -- and we'd try these changes out. Some were good, some sucked. We'd keep the good ones (a democratic decision always) and incorporate them into the recording after a reasonable amount of rehearsal. I would also create most or all of the keyboard arrangements. I can't read or write, but I'd sing the desired parts to the players. I had my favorite keyboard guys, and I usually had a variety of keys for any band that didn't have a keyboard player in the band itself. I'd also suggest and sometimes sing harmonies and backing vocals.It was a collaboration, where the producer temporarily becomes another member of the band.I was completely dependent on the engineer, since I am a total technoramus. The only time I touched the board, really, was during the mix, and only to deal with volume changes of various instruments. I'd tell the engineer what I wanted, and he'd do it. I knew what all the pieces outboard gear did, but had no clue as to how they did it. I made some pretty average records in the beginning -- ones that I wasn't at all satisfied with the sound of -- but it's a learning process like anything else. The producer either makes or is part of every decision from the selection of songs through rehearsal, studio and engineer selection, instrument placement, microphone choice and placement, even down to what kind of beater we want for the kick drum and which snare drum we would use for each song. Mainly, I'd just sit there while we played the tune bak, or take it home with me and listen at home, and parts would come into my head. There were certain things I did almost always, as a rule -- double rhythm guitar parts, use a Hammond B3 organ under guitar power chords, and I played all the percussion on my records, too (yes, with the band's blessing). Many producers are engineers who moved into the producing function, but George Martin had Geoff Emerick engineering for him, and many of the most well known and successful producers had the same engineer work with them for years and years. I used four different engineers over a 20-year period. During an album, you're basically married to your engineer for 12 hours a day, so you'd better be a compatible duo. A sense of humor in both parties is essential. After mixing the record, I would take it to mastering (the last step) and after the band approved it, it would be delivered to the label, who would listen to it and accept it. Some are rejected or sent back for more work, but I never experienced this. That's when the label began working to release and market the LP, and the producer went on to his next project. Hope this helps to answer your question.
 

Craig in Indy

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^^ Excellent explanation of the roles and who fills them, thanks. I've always thought it would be fascinating to get a glimpse of how the process works.

I've always been struck by how completely different the role of a "producer" is in music vs in TV or movies. In the latter the work of the producer seems to be more related to putting together the money end of things rather than being a hands-on molder of the finished product.

Very interesting. Thanks for the insights.
 

Fisha

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Good questions, Craig -- the only situation in which an arranger is evident, as far as I've seen, is the easy listening situation -- the older artists like Sinatra and Johnny Mathis, for instance. Jack Nitzsche arranged some great strings for Neil Young on the "Harvest" album, but I've come across very few arrangers in a pop or rock project. The producer should serve as the arranger, or he's not really a producer, in my opinion. In fact, the arranging function was the most important function I served in my sessions. In rehearsal, I'd suggest many changes -- in song structure (cut the intro in half, or get rid of the 3rd chorus, or move this to there) and in parts (in the bridge play the hi-hat cymbal instead of the ride cymbal, and play quarter notes instead of eighth notes -- and we'd try these changes out. Some were good, some sucked. We'd keep the good ones (a democratic decision always) and incorporate them into the recording after a reasonable amount of rehearsal. I would also create most or all of the keyboard arrangements. I can't read or write, but I'd sing the desired parts to the players. I had my favorite keyboard guys, and I usually had a variety of keys for any band that didn't have a keyboard player in the band itself. I'd also suggest and sometimes sing harmonies and backing vocals.It was a collaboration, where the producer temporarily becomes another member of the band.I was completely dependent on the engineer, since I am a total technoramus. The only time I touched the board, really, was during the mix, and only to deal with volume changes of various instruments. I'd tell the engineer what I wanted, and he'd do it. I knew what all the pieces outboard gear did, but had no clue as to how they did it. I made some pretty average records in the beginning -- ones that I wasn't at all satisfied with the sound of -- but it's a learning process like anything else. The producer either makes or is part of every decision from the selection of songs through rehearsal, studio and engineer selection, instrument placement, microphone choice and placement, even down to what kind of beater we want for the kick drum and which snare drum we would use for each song. Mainly, I'd just sit there while we played the tune bak, or take it home with me and listen at home, and parts would come into my head. There were certain things I did almost always, as a rule -- double rhythm guitar parts, use a Hammond B3 organ under guitar power chords, and I played all the percussion on my records, too (yes, with the band's blessing). Many producers are engineers who moved into the producing function, but George Martin had Geoff Emerick engineering for him, and many of the most well known and successful producers had the same engineer work with them for years and years. I used four different engineers over a 20-year period. During an album, you're basically married to your engineer for 12 hours a day, so you'd better be a compatible duo. A sense of humor in both parties is essential. After mixing the record, I would take it to mastering (the last step) and after the band approved it, it would be delivered to the label, who would listen to it and accept it. Some are rejected or sent back for more work, but I never experienced this. That's when the label began working to release and market the LP, and the producer went on to his next project. Hope this helps to answer your question.

Hey mate, I'm actually somewhat of an aspiring producer. I'd greatly appreciate it if I could have a chance to have a chat with you. I'll pm you (y)
 

METALPRIEST

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Not sure if you're familiar with John Hunter from the band The Hounds (Columbia Records) there Mr. Werman, but he was a manager of mine along time ago and also a producer of mine (still buds) at Chicago Recording Company and your explanation is exact to what I experienced. :grinthumb
 

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