Black Sabbath (Official Thread)

[Sharp Dressed Man]

Why? I'm genuinely curious.

I didn't know grunge was unpopular on this forum?

Don't take my comment so seriously. My reaction was slightly overplayed. I do not have a problem with grunge as such - I think you'll find lots of fans of the genre here

I simply wanted to make the point that Iommi's style has nothing to do with grunge.

By the way, don't be discouraged to ask questions like that again. It wasn't a stupid question. Finding heads and tails in genres is not always easy!

 

[Musikwala]

Don't take my comment so seriously. My reaction was slightly overplayed. I do not have a problem with grunge as such - I think you'll find lots of fans of the genre here

I simply wanted to make the point that Iommi's style has nothing to do with grunge.

Oh ok. No worries. I grew up with grunge during my prime teenage years (and looking at your age, you did too probably), so there is no guilty pleasure here whatsoever. I love the genre! And several music historians have said that Soundgarden was heavily influenced by Iommi's guitar playing. I can hear it in the music too! Hence my question.

 

[Sharp Dressed Man]

You are right, but I was never a fan of the genre, although I did like some bands that you could argue had some grunge elements, like Smashing pumpkins, which was one of my favourite bands in the 90s.

 

[Musikwala]

Smashing Pumpkins are great! I love 'em.


My question still stands:

If somebody could explain how Iommi's downtuning was different from the downtuning that happened in grunge music, that would be helpful.

 

[Lynch]

music historians have said that Soundgarden was heavily influenced by Iommi's guitar playing. I can hear it in the music too! Hence my question.

Here's the thing with "influences", sometimes those influences show up in someone's recorded work, but many times, it really does not.

Example: One of Eddie Van Halen's biggest influences was Eric Clapton. Now if you go listen to the entire VH discography, tell me how many songs sound like there is any EC in there at all?

Another example, Diamond/Dimebag Darryl of Pantera fame .. one of his single biggest influences was Ace Frehley. While he was alive, he even went so far as to say that if it hadn't have been for Ace and KISS, there may have never been a Pantera or a Dimebag Darryl at all. I've been a lifelong fan of KISS and I really can't say that I've heard anything from Pantera's 1990 release Cowboys From Hell up to the point that they broke up that I would ever say sounded the least bit like Ace or anything from KISS.

Now, for me, I think that those are good examples of the complete opposite of what you are describing. I'm not a fan of Soundgarden, at all. I even fell asleep during their show back in '92. I am familar with four of their first five albums simply because I HAD to from my DJ'ing days that started in the late 80's. I haven't listened to anything from them on purpose for years so I can't say whether I could hear what you are hearing. That being said, what I do remember sounds nothing like anything from Sabbath. Perhaps Kim was influenced, but as pointed out with the examples above, that doesn't necessarily reflect anything other than maybe he just loved Sabbath and when was learning guitar, emultated it... over time, part of that sound could come through in spots.

*shrug*

 

[Musikwala]

Lynch, from your post you sound like you are not a fan of Soundgarden at all and have likely not heard what I'm referring to. Ask other people who are fans of both Sabbath and Soundgarden and they will know what I'm talking about. You can hear it pretty clearly on several parts of 1991's Badmotorfinger and 1994's Superunknown. In fact, even 2012's King Animal has sections that sound like it. It's that slow downtuned guitar "sludge". Listen to the track, Slaves And Bulldozers.

Your examples with VH, EC, Kiss and Pantera are all noted. But they sound more like subtle influences, not such a heavy influence as with the case of Sabbath and Soundgarden.

I'll admit that all grunge didn't sound like this. It was only Soundgarden.

 

[Lynch]

couple of things.

1) my point wasn't to bash Soundgarden. I said in my post that I don't like them, but I wasn't posting to bash them.

2) VH+EC and KISS+Pantera... no those aren't "subtle indluences" at all... as I said, both Clapton and Ace Frehley were major influences (respectively) to both Eddie and Darryl and this is a very well known fact for both guitarists and I said as much in the post, not sure where you got subtle influences out of either of those examples. *shrug*


I'll check out Slaves and Bulldozers in a bit. Thanks for the example

 

[Lynch]

Ahh yeah, I remember that song, one of the few from that album that would listen to and not fast forward through.

To me, that song songs a lot more like a band that was influenced by 70's or early 80's 'doom metal'. Of course, many people would credit Iommi for being a major influence in the doom metal subgenre, so maybe indirectly I could see what you are saying about Kim being influenced by Iommi, but to me the bass line sounds more doomy and Sabbathy than the guitar line.

 

[Musikwala]

^ Fair enough.

Lynch, I called them subtle influences based on what you yourself said:

Here's the thing with "influences", sometimes those influences show up in someone's recorded work, but many times, it really does not.

Now if you go listen to the entire VH discography, tell me how many songs sound like there is any EC in there at all?

I've been a lifelong fan of KISS and I really can't say that I've heard anything from Pantera's 1990 release Cowboys From Hell up to the point that they broke up that I would ever say sounded the least bit like Ace or anything from KISS.

 

[Lynch]

both the EVH and DD comments were preempted by " biggest influences was ___", my whole point was that just because someone is heavily influenced by someone before them, doesn't mean that their own work is going to sound like their influences. That doesn't diminish their influences or the effect on them, it just means they didn't go out and become copycats.

Hope that makes more sense.