Thanks for all the thoughtful posts -- but I, too, might ask the same question -- why are you upset about my criticism of your criticism? I'm a big music fan, just like you. You say "we're a nice group of people", but several of you call my records "trash", and claim that many of the groups complain about me. Since I did 65 records, and 2 guys badmouthed me years after selling many millions of records we did together, it does seem that you're basing your opinion of the sound of my records on just these two guys. Check out the Producers' first LP, titled "The Producers". You'll hear something quite different. Check out Brownsville's version of Bo Diddley's "Who Do You Love?" , recorded in their manager's basement.... every band presents a different set of challenges. Most people I've explained the producer's role to consider it a greater accomplishment to have produced a hit Eagles record than a hit Motley Crue record. I disagree. Any "producer" could literally sleep through an entire recording of an Eagles album, and they'd still come out with a hit.Not so Motley Crue. The Eagles oozed with talent and seriousness of purpose. Not so MC. And in terms of supposing I may have critiqued music in the past, I was an A&R man with Epic Records for 12 years, the last 6 of which I was astaff producer, as well. I signed REO Speedwagon, Ted Nugent, Cheap Trick, Molly Hatchet and Boston. The bands I signed to Epic have sold over 150 million copies to date. Regrettably, A&R people did not participate in the profits, as they did starting in the late 80's. I can't complain, but sometimes I still do.Comparisons? Without a doubt there were producers who were far better than I. When I started, my role model was Glyn Johns. I spent time with, respected and revered George Martin. Tom Dowd, Jerry Wexler and Arif Mardin were heroes. Mike Chapman, Keith Forsey, Ted Templeman, Phil Ramone, Tony Visconti, Jimmy Miller -- all excellent and very inspiring to me. But when you ask why I get upset over criticism like yours? I left behind an MBA and an intended career as a captain of industry to go into rock and roll, because I loved it too much not to. I took a cut in salary. I spent 6 years in the trenches before I even got in the studio. This was my main career in life -- the most important thing to me. To be given the opportunity to help craft, shape and arrange the records that would be the soundtrack of millions of peoples' youth? And get paid for it, to boot? Wouldn't you be upset if someone made light of your legacy? I don't expect to be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, but I do have a drawer full of letters and emails from fans who wrote me unsolicited thank-yous and letters of praise. So when I'm referred by one of those fans to a music forum where comments are 100% negative of my work, I feel compelled to defend myself. Is this not a reasonable response?
Songs That You Like For Their Production
- Thread starter Soot and Stars
- Start date
TheFeldster
Mr Kite
I'm gonna point out here that I'm not one of those people who pays much attention to the overall production value of a song or album - I understand and respect that there's people that work very hard on that end of things, and am grateful for that, but for me, music is one big package. Not split into "production" and "music" or anything like that, just one end package is what it is to me. If I like what I hear, I'll listen to it, if I don't, I won't. That's the only way I'll ever judge music.
And, Mr. Werman, nice work slipping in the Joe Walsh quote into that last post. I like it
And, Mr. Werman, nice work slipping in the Joe Walsh quote into that last post. I like it
METALPRIEST
Senior Member
Well the way I see it, is some people's minds you're not gonna change, but Mr. Werman had the floor and all opinions should be respected as well.
Also I hope you appreciate that some of us listed albums that we like...you've done sooo many they can't all be listed. Again, thanks for the discussion. Very cool and fascinating to read.
In the end though...as a singer...with two worldwide "re-releases" out... I take crap across the internet. The band is 20 years old..and I like to think I've matured...but when that stuff is out there..you have to read from some that they LOVE IT and have to swallow all the "this is crap, are they serious" comments.
But I chose to sign the papers and allow it out there...now I have to take whatever comes...the good and the bad. But I know where you are coming from...the people that diss it weren't there..have no clue we had no funds...the hours spent...what we were feeling...if they were the fly on the wall, they would love it alot more...but maybe not.
All I know is, we didn't have enough money to afford heroin to shoot up with during those sessions way back when...but as the saying goes, it is what it is and I cuold care less what someone's opinion is.
Send me my check.
Also I hope you appreciate that some of us listed albums that we like...you've done sooo many they can't all be listed. Again, thanks for the discussion. Very cool and fascinating to read.
In the end though...as a singer...with two worldwide "re-releases" out... I take crap across the internet. The band is 20 years old..and I like to think I've matured...but when that stuff is out there..you have to read from some that they LOVE IT and have to swallow all the "this is crap, are they serious" comments.
But I chose to sign the papers and allow it out there...now I have to take whatever comes...the good and the bad. But I know where you are coming from...the people that diss it weren't there..have no clue we had no funds...the hours spent...what we were feeling...if they were the fly on the wall, they would love it alot more...but maybe not.
All I know is, we didn't have enough money to afford heroin to shoot up with during those sessions way back when...but as the saying goes, it is what it is and I cuold care less what someone's opinion is.
Send me my check.
Fair enough. It has been a pleasure having you here defending yourself
In review of this whole thread, one person made negative comments prior to you registering and posting. Why does one person's opinion upset you so much? This thread is for discussion of the forum members opinions, whether those opinions be negative or postitive and irrelevant of where they draw their conclusions from.
I still stand on my right to voice my opinion on what I feel sounds best to me, that is the nature of criticism, even if I am an 'armchair critic'. I cannot speak for the member (s) who posted negative comments, those are that person's objective opinions based on comparison of album releases he/she has listened to and subjective by that person's own taste in music.
I am glad you have stopped by to discuss this with us, but I feel you are on a vendetta that we cannot help you with. The members here on this forum are not the parties to whom your grievance is with, these people are only expressing their opinions after-the-fact.
If you look at it this way, Mr. Werman, which I feel is a positive way of looking at the situation, we had to buy the albums in the first place to come up with any opinion. Purchasing an album is supporting the musician, the record label, the producer, and even the custodian at the studio. I have to admit I have purchesed some of these albums in several formats, too. Give us some credit and respect, and you shall receive it in return.
Craig in Indy
Your cool Uncle
This has been a fascinating thread, and I've enjoyed reading it. Where it falls down, in my estimation, is that with a little more technical background we could learn more about the whole process of production, which I know many here, myself included, would find extremely interesting. Mr. Werman's participation would be invaluable in that regard.
For example, I have my own ideas about the roles the people involved "behind the scenes" in the recording process have (that is, everyone in the studio except the musicians), and it would be interesting to know if this is accurate. I see the whole recording process as a continuum, with each person's role occupying a specific place on that continuum, but with a little bit of overlap where the roles and responsibilities meet.
The people I'm thinking of are, at one end of the continuum, the arranger (if there is one), and at the other end, the engineer, with the producer occupying a more central post, with responsibilities that extend to both ends of the chain. But it's all of them together that work to create a "production," the result of which either works in support of the music (and musicians), or doesn't.
For example, I would expect that only in commercial pop recordings are you going to find a dedicated arranger as part of the team, but even in the most raw rock recording someone will have to fill that role, whether the musician(s) or the producer or a combination of the two.
What we as listeners refer to as "production" or "production values" is really, I believe, the combination of the work done by all of these individuals and not just the producer per se. The aspects of "production" that we appreciate when we hear them actually include all kinds of things, from the relative "audiophile" quality of the recording itself, to the selection of instruments, to the decisions about who will play what at what times, to decisions about addiing other musicians, to after-the-fact sweetening with reverb and other post processing.
I'd love to hear the pros discuss whether this "outsider's" perception of the process is accurate at all, and talk specifically about who does what in the whole chain. It's something I've been interested in for many years, but have never had the opportunity to learn about.
For example, I have my own ideas about the roles the people involved "behind the scenes" in the recording process have (that is, everyone in the studio except the musicians), and it would be interesting to know if this is accurate. I see the whole recording process as a continuum, with each person's role occupying a specific place on that continuum, but with a little bit of overlap where the roles and responsibilities meet.
The people I'm thinking of are, at one end of the continuum, the arranger (if there is one), and at the other end, the engineer, with the producer occupying a more central post, with responsibilities that extend to both ends of the chain. But it's all of them together that work to create a "production," the result of which either works in support of the music (and musicians), or doesn't.
For example, I would expect that only in commercial pop recordings are you going to find a dedicated arranger as part of the team, but even in the most raw rock recording someone will have to fill that role, whether the musician(s) or the producer or a combination of the two.
What we as listeners refer to as "production" or "production values" is really, I believe, the combination of the work done by all of these individuals and not just the producer per se. The aspects of "production" that we appreciate when we hear them actually include all kinds of things, from the relative "audiophile" quality of the recording itself, to the selection of instruments, to the decisions about who will play what at what times, to decisions about addiing other musicians, to after-the-fact sweetening with reverb and other post processing.
I'd love to hear the pros discuss whether this "outsider's" perception of the process is accurate at all, and talk specifically about who does what in the whole chain. It's something I've been interested in for many years, but have never had the opportunity to learn about.
rtbuck
Senior Member
Pat Catalano
Senior Member
Well Interesting thread I must say. I am going to toss in my 2 cents lol. I say Tom Werman or any producer for that matter is like a painter. You give that painter an old set of paints and a torn up canvas (the bands in this case) there's only so much you can do. Now personally, I like what the man did with Dokken "Tooth and Nail". As for the work Mr. Werman has done, Stryper, Kix, BOC, LA Guns, and so on I tell you right now, I would not think twice to have him produce a Catalano record. I believe once you have a good relationship with a producer and both are on the same page, your record will sound great. It's true there's 2 sides to the story with Motley or some other bands. But he did say the final ok was given by the band. Can't dispute that.
Pat Catalano
Senior Member
Heres my pick
I refuse to believe any band would want anything but the best sound possible on anything they released. The fact that TW was a heavyweight producer contracted by a big label to produce their stable of bands tells me resources would not be a problem.
I have always pursued the best quality possible for my music, it has been a passion of mine for over 30 years now.
I reiterate that it does not take a genius or diplomat to engineer/produce an album with solid drums, deep bass, clear vocals and lively guitars/keyboards, there are 1,000's of examples of that in the music world. I have a host of favorite producers from over the years who's work is always good no matter who they were recording.
I would like to thank TW for taking the time to visit and share his thoughts with us, I do respect anyone who has had a very successful career in the business and accomplished what he has.
I have always pursued the best quality possible for my music, it has been a passion of mine for over 30 years now.
I reiterate that it does not take a genius or diplomat to engineer/produce an album with solid drums, deep bass, clear vocals and lively guitars/keyboards, there are 1,000's of examples of that in the music world. I have a host of favorite producers from over the years who's work is always good no matter who they were recording.
I would like to thank TW for taking the time to visit and share his thoughts with us, I do respect anyone who has had a very successful career in the business and accomplished what he has.
aeroplane
In Urgent Need of Advice
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Hi Tom,
I haven't posted here in quite some time because I am far busier at work during the week than I used to be. Thus I was stunned to be notified by a couple of people that you were replying to some of my previous comments. I may post two or three replies, based on what you've contributed so far.
Because you were upset about what was said by people here, I went back and reread some of my posts in this thread. Aside from commenting that Motley's early albums sounded like "rubbish", in all honesty, I don't know what I said that could be considered offensive.
To clarify this point, I don't think Motley's first album (before you got involved with them) sounded particularly good and I don't think any of their work since 1994 sounds that good. I just don't like the production of their albums that didn't have Bob Rock involved. Motley did four full studio albums in which neither you or Bob Rock were involved and I don't really like the production on them. Just as a listener. When I say some of their albums sound lousy, I'm not out to damn you in particular. Those four Crue albums that neither you or Bob Rock worked on were produced by four different guys, if memory serves, and I just don't like how any of them sound. At least not as well as the Bob Rock albums.
Hell, you worked on three of Motley's best albums (song wise) and as you say, they all sold very well. For that, you deserve credit and should be commended. Yeah, I wish the production sounded like Bob Rock did on Dr. Feelgood, but that's just my opinion. If it helps, I will say I never really had a problem with the early Crue albums until hearing how much better the production sounded when Bob was working with the band (in my opinion).
The remainder of what I said just acknowledges that some of your past clients have complained about your work in the past, such as Nikki Sixx and Dee Snider, among others.
While I brought up Dee Snider, I don't believe I ever directly criticized you for the work. Relating what Dee has been saying and doing over the years about Stay Hungry doesn't make it my opinion. Besides, all of us here know that Twisted Sister hasn't done anything worth a damn in the studio since the album you worked on with them, so you have the last laugh on the topic of Twisted Sister as far as I am concerned. The radio station I used to work for got a copy of that Stay Hungry remake (Still Hungry) and from top to bottom, it was a worse recording than what you did with them. Dee botched it terribly. I should know. I played some of the cuts over the air during my metal shows.
For the record, I purchased each of the Motley albums you worked on three times apiece. Once on cassette, once on cd and once on cd again when they were reissued with bonus tracks. I enjoy the songs. They are good albums that helped define the band.
As for Nikki Sixx and Dee Snider approving of the work you did for them, then yes that changes things a little. I can believe that the two of them thought the recordings sounded good at the time and maybe they just didn't want to put any more time or trouble into it. If they were tired of being in the studio and just wanted to be done, I can see where they'd tell you the recordings are fine.
Besides it is well documented that both of those guys run their mouths too much. I'll agree it is awfully convenient for them to criticize your work on the albums 20 years after the fact. As for myself, I feel like I can give an opinion because I paid for the recordings once upon a time and because I never signed off on them in the studio
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