First metal band?

[FretBuzz]

I get where you're coming from, and agree with you AAG.

MusicMistress:
If you want to really give credit where credit is due, then the roots of metal go way before the modern metal that everyone is mentioning. Classical music is where it all began. ...(this is a statement more than a question)

But there is zero classical influence in Black Sabbath, or Motorhead. Are you saying that they don't play heavy metal, because they aren't influenced by classical music?

Classical music has definitely become a major influence in a lot of post-1980 metal., but it didn't all begin with classical.

 

[LG]

^^You guys are missing the point.

All music we play and enjoy now is connected to the generations of musicians that went before, from metal to pop to dance to country it is all connected like one big tapestry.

Go ahead and pull one strand and the whole thing will unravel.

All modern music owes Something to classical period, that is undeniable fact. We are not talking about individual bands per-se but the massive influence on the totality of music. It started with the classical composers because they gave us structure and form and incorporated all elements into their compositions.

Give Beethoven an electric guitar and put him in our time and he would be among the greatest guitarists in history, the same goes for numerous others. The reason I mention the forefathers of classical is because they would fit into any modern era of music, the same as Hendrix could go back and be a concert violinist in the 1700's, it works both ways.

They came first and established the framework for everything that came after.

 

[aeroplane]

But there is zero classical influence in Black Sabbath, or Motorhead. Are you saying that they don't play heavy metal, because they aren't influenced by classical music?

Classical music has definitely become a major influence in a lot of post-1980 metal., but it didn't all begin with classical.

Before they went and played with an orchestra, would most people have ever "saw" a classical influence in Metallica?

 

[FretBuzz]

^^^^ Kirk likes to play solos in the harmonic minor mode a lot, which comes from classical music. (I love the way the harmonic minor sounds....)

^^You guys are missing the point.

All music we play and enjoy now is connected to the generations of musicians that went before, from metal to pop to dance to country it is all connected like one big tapestry.

Go ahead and pull one strand and the whole thing will unravel.

All modern music owes Something to classical period, that is undeniable fact. We are not talking about individual bands per-se but the massive influence on the totality of music. It started with the classical composers because they gave us structure and form and incorporated all elements into their compositions...

I agree to an extent. Metal is an outgrowth of rock 'n' roll, which came from combining the blues with country. The blues and country scales are derived from the western 12 note chromatic scale, which of course classical music uses.

But the 'verse, chorus, verse, chorus' etc. song form comes from old traditional music which goes way back, to the middle ages or even further. So that aspect of popular music actually predates classical.

 

[AboutAGirl]

^^You guys are missing the point.

All music we play and enjoy now is connected to the generations of musicians that went before, from metal to pop to dance to country it is all connected like one big tapestry.

Go ahead and pull one strand and the whole thing will unravel.

All modern music owes Something to classical period, that is undeniable fact. We are not talking about individual bands per-se but the massive influence on the totality of music. It started with the classical composers because they gave us structure and form and incorporated all elements into their compositions.

Nobody here has argued against that once. What we're saying is that metal is not classical, classical is not metal, and there is more to the picture than SOLELY classical music. Just like you said, with the strand, noone could have jumped from Beethoven to Kreator.

Give Beethoven an electric guitar and put him in our time and he would be among the greatest guitarists in history, the same goes for numerous others.

The reason I mention the forefathers of classical is because they would fit into any modern era of music, the same as Hendrix could go back and be a concert violinist in the 1700's, it works both ways.

That's conjecture. Maybe Beethoven would despise the electric guitar. I don't think Hendrix could even read music. We can't extrapolate alternate realities with any level of authority.

They came first and established the framework for everything that came after.

I agree and I've stated that tens of times, it feels. Now mightn't you be so kind as to save me a trip to the luny bin and admit that classical music is not metal? I know you never said that it WAS per se', but just... for my sanity... can we agree?

Yes, classical music set ALL of the framework. But it doesn't contain **all** the elements of metal. There are plenty of things which were yet to be invented, yet to be coined. Classical music may have set the framework for these things, but it's simply impossible to attribute something like, say, harsh vocals to Beethoven. It's simply impossible.

 

[Magic]

I get where you're coming from, and agree with you AAG.





But there is zero classical influence in Black Sabbath, or Motorhead. Are you saying that they don't play heavy metal, because they aren't influenced by classical music?

Classical music has definitely become a major influence in a lot of post-1980 metal., but it didn't all begin with classical.

you are wrong, Fretbuzz. Black Sabbath's "Mr Crowley" uses classical influences. This song uses a Pipe Organ and Baroque-inspired riffs. Randy Rhodes was very into classical art and music theory. He created most of the mood and tone of early Black Sabbath.

Many of the early metal musicians; composers as well as guitarists, borrowed tones, stylings, and riffs from the classical music era. These early metal bands didn't want to sound like classical music, but they used the dark and deep sounds of classical music to create what we all now know as Heavy Metal.

By saying "all" metal began with classical would be putting an absolute to metals' beginnings, which we all know can't be done. But if everyone basically agrees that Black Sabbath was the first heavy metal band, then yes, the influence is there from classical music. Ozzy and Black Sabbath were the innovators of bringing back the Devil's Interval, which I hate to tell you comes from midieval times and classical music.

I wont delve into Motorhead, because I feel that all this would be over explanation.

Oh and Deep Purple do use Classical music influences, as well.



Historically, it is well documented that classical music plays a huge role in the musical composition of metal and heavy metal.

 

[Magic]

Nobody here has argued against that once. What we're saying is that metal is not classical, classical is not metal, and there is more to the picture than SOLELY classical music. Just like you said, with the strand, noone could have jumped from Beethoven to Kreator.



.

So you do finally agree with MM that the credit for the roots of metal goes to classical music?


I dont believe the argument is trying to say Classical Music = Metal or visa versa. The argument says classic music is the root *influence* for metal.

 

[AboutAGirl]

So you do finally agree with MM that the credit for the roots of metal goes to classical music?

'Finally' my ass. You haven't read any of my posts if you think I've been denying that.

I dont believe the argument is trying to say Classical Music = Metal or visa versa. The argument says classic music is the root *influence* for metal.

This argument is about MM saying "so and so classical song contains *all* the elements of metal" and me saying "that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, there are at least SOME aspects of metal not present in classical music."

 

[Magic]

This argument is about MM saying "so and so classical song contains *all* the elements of metal" and me saying "that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, there are at least SOME aspects of metal not present in classical music."

Ok, I went and listened to the two examples MM posted. The elements of metal seem present to me in those examples except electric guitars.

Have you ever heard of Apocalyptica? This band isnt metal then because there is no electric guitars?

Surely you jest, AAG.

You can google and find quite a few metal bands that don't use electric guitars. Again, I think I need to reiterate that it is AMPLIFICATION (loudness) that counts, IMO.

 

[Vic2010]

Haven't read evey single post in this thread (there aren't enough hours in the day ). Count me among the very few who think Metal has nothing to do with classical music. Yes, I'm aware that a lot of "shredders" had this "neo-classical" influence on Heavy Metal, and that Deep Purple did the Orchestra + Rock Group thing in 1969, but I just don't see/hear how classical/orchestral music influenced the sonics of heavy metal. I'm referring to the evolution of the actual sounds of distorted guitars, pounding drums, big riff, power chords, etc. Has classical music influenced rock and roll in general? Of course it has. There's an entire genre called "prog/rock" from the early 70s (and endures today) and it ain't heavy metal.