Led Zeppelin (Official Thread)
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gcczep
Ever Onward...
Things Peter Norway Wish Zeppelin Had Done Differently
1. The Two Slow Blues Songs on Zeppelin I
“I Can’t Quit You Baby” and “You Shook Me”. These songs put the plod in plodding. They bring an otherwise masterful album to a dead-stop. The band comes off as a bunch of goony MIS-interpreters of the blues.
Yeah, they are heavier… They were criticized for it. If some found it offensive then up theirs… I like the call and response part in You Shook Me while I Can’t Quit You Baby is on a lower key and much more reserved. An unbridled, raw singer, a powerhouse drummer, a solid bassist/keyboardist and an anxious guitar player looking to fully express himself, then you can’t expect restraint for better or for worse. Mind you, not eactly a timid collective of talent and personalities to begin with. It’s akin to having a Ferrari and not utilizing the horsepower.
2. Cover Art for Zeppelin II and The Song Remains the Same
Zeppelin II: It seems cool for sentimental reasons as a Zepp fan. But if you weren’t a fan it’d just be an ugly brown mess. The Song Remains the Same: Seems more like a cold, angular, 80’s album cover. So blah, that it’s not even fun to hate.
Meh…if you wanted to find out about the music, covers are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. For some, it just an excuse for pseudo-intellectual jibberish.
3. First Four Album Names
The first four records deserved real names. I’m OK with the self titled first album, but after that the simple numbering system is too mundane for such an interesting band. Although for long time Zepp fans, the numbers have taken on an identifiable essence…but still, kinda lame.
The fourth album was untitled but hey the whole world learned to deal with it. Maybe the group didn't care to come off trying to be witty with cute names to tickle people's fancy. Who knows?
4. Moby Dick
One in a hundred drum solos are worth the time. The opening riff could have made for a barnstorming number, a la Custard Pie. Blame it on the 70’s, but to me Zepp were smarter than the whole hoary drum-solo thing. Moby Dick was stretched to ridiculous lengths in concert. I guess the only redeeming quality is it gave the audience a chance to relieve themselves and score more weed.
Bonham’s solo did just that as well as the other three members. Yes, it was the 1970's an era of self indulgence and excess. Sure it stretched to lengths but I give him some credit that he broke it down to parts with the sticks, the hands, the tympani and back to the sticks.
5. Sound Production on Zepp II and IV
Zeppelin II sounds muffled and foggy. Like someone threw an old suede coat over the speakers. Zeppelin IV and other songs recorded at Headley Grange sound grainy and tame (excepting what they did with Bono’s drums on Levee).
II was clean IMHO but it has to be considered that most of the songs were done at different locations while they were on the road in 1969. Bits and pieces were all over the map since they booked time where they can cobble it. The group did not sit down for an extended period in one particular studio to have a more refined output. They both sound fine to me and I don’t use cheap equipment.
6. Plant’s Often Vulgar Sexuality
His bulge is a blight on “The Song Remains the Same”. The lifted blues line from “The Lemon Song”: “Squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg” is embarrassingly crass. Some of his ill fitting blouses were silly…and some downright hideous.
LOL! If you were looking at IT making it an issue plus actually spending time critiquing his fashion statements then what is there that can be said? Yes I find that bit in “The Lemon Song” crass but it was tongue in cheek funny to me and unless you’re uptight then you’d know it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously. Plant wasn't out there to be Pat Boone
1. The Two Slow Blues Songs on Zeppelin I
“I Can’t Quit You Baby” and “You Shook Me”. These songs put the plod in plodding. They bring an otherwise masterful album to a dead-stop. The band comes off as a bunch of goony MIS-interpreters of the blues.
Yeah, they are heavier… They were criticized for it. If some found it offensive then up theirs… I like the call and response part in You Shook Me while I Can’t Quit You Baby is on a lower key and much more reserved. An unbridled, raw singer, a powerhouse drummer, a solid bassist/keyboardist and an anxious guitar player looking to fully express himself, then you can’t expect restraint for better or for worse. Mind you, not eactly a timid collective of talent and personalities to begin with. It’s akin to having a Ferrari and not utilizing the horsepower.
2. Cover Art for Zeppelin II and The Song Remains the Same
Zeppelin II: It seems cool for sentimental reasons as a Zepp fan. But if you weren’t a fan it’d just be an ugly brown mess. The Song Remains the Same: Seems more like a cold, angular, 80’s album cover. So blah, that it’s not even fun to hate.
Meh…if you wanted to find out about the music, covers are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. For some, it just an excuse for pseudo-intellectual jibberish.
3. First Four Album Names
The first four records deserved real names. I’m OK with the self titled first album, but after that the simple numbering system is too mundane for such an interesting band. Although for long time Zepp fans, the numbers have taken on an identifiable essence…but still, kinda lame.
The fourth album was untitled but hey the whole world learned to deal with it. Maybe the group didn't care to come off trying to be witty with cute names to tickle people's fancy. Who knows?
4. Moby Dick
One in a hundred drum solos are worth the time. The opening riff could have made for a barnstorming number, a la Custard Pie. Blame it on the 70’s, but to me Zepp were smarter than the whole hoary drum-solo thing. Moby Dick was stretched to ridiculous lengths in concert. I guess the only redeeming quality is it gave the audience a chance to relieve themselves and score more weed.
Bonham’s solo did just that as well as the other three members. Yes, it was the 1970's an era of self indulgence and excess. Sure it stretched to lengths but I give him some credit that he broke it down to parts with the sticks, the hands, the tympani and back to the sticks.
5. Sound Production on Zepp II and IV
Zeppelin II sounds muffled and foggy. Like someone threw an old suede coat over the speakers. Zeppelin IV and other songs recorded at Headley Grange sound grainy and tame (excepting what they did with Bono’s drums on Levee).
II was clean IMHO but it has to be considered that most of the songs were done at different locations while they were on the road in 1969. Bits and pieces were all over the map since they booked time where they can cobble it. The group did not sit down for an extended period in one particular studio to have a more refined output. They both sound fine to me and I don’t use cheap equipment.
6. Plant’s Often Vulgar Sexuality
His bulge is a blight on “The Song Remains the Same”. The lifted blues line from “The Lemon Song”: “Squeeze my lemon till the juice runs down my leg” is embarrassingly crass. Some of his ill fitting blouses were silly…and some downright hideous.
LOL! If you were looking at IT making it an issue plus actually spending time critiquing his fashion statements then what is there that can be said? Yes I find that bit in “The Lemon Song” crass but it was tongue in cheek funny to me and unless you’re uptight then you’d know it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously. Plant wasn't out there to be Pat Boone
Last edited:
gcczep
Ever Onward...
Things Peter Norway Wish Zeppelin Had Done Differently (continued...)
7. Song Issues
“Black Dog”: The vocals are cool and nasty, but the circular riff and lumbering beat is the audio equivalent of getting a truck load of tar dumped on your head.
“In the Light”: Filler masquerading as something interesting.
“The Song Remains the Same”: I could do without the tacked on vocal track.
“The Rain Song”: Pretty enough when I was a kid. But now as an adult I need to be honest with myself and admit that it’s more than a little boring.
“Hot Dog”: I like the song, but it’s very jarring among the elegant songs here.
Interesting take on “Black Dog” and I never did latch on to “In The Light” myself. Hot Dog was a hokey attempt by the group for a C&W honky tonk rocker. It was all right yet not to be considered an epic by any means.
8. Song Names
“D’yer Mak’er": Great song, but as an inside joke it’s not even funny from the inside. All it did was make American kids feel stupid trying to say it, and start petty arguments over pronunciation. I swear this band must have been high ALL the time.
“Hats Off to Roy Harper”: He was good…but did they need to name a song after the guy?
“Hots On For Nowhere” what?
“How Many More Times”: sounds like a mother’s scolding
That’s Zeppelin for you…unconventional.
9. Movie Soundtrack
I actually really like the movie, especially the personal segments. Robert Plant riding a white Arabian on the beach at night? HOW THE HELL ISN’T THAT COOL!!! I’m not sure why the movie’s got such a bad name. My only problem is the song selection. (Oh and Jimmy's multi-colored sword is 100% K-mart.)
With all the stellar tracks they had up to that point, I don’t see the need for:
“Celebration Day”, “Moby Dick”, and “The Rain Song”. They could have added 5 rockin’ numbers in place of Dick Rain. Then on the actual soundtrack release, they leave “The Rain Song” on...but remove “Since I’ve Been Lovin’ You”? ? ?
“Since I’ve Been Loving You” is on the new version. Take out Bonham’s solo in the set? Yeah, that would have gone over well within the band. Page's multi colored sword? That was pretentious but hey so are the CGI effects nowadays. I thought the flick really didn't do them justice live given that it was near the end of that tour. The band came off tired... Jones' refusal to wear the same clothes made editing and piecing the footage impossible. Grant called it the "most expensive home movie ever made" and I agree.
10. Presence
I don’t know how millionaire bands find themselves rushed for time. They hurried this album while holed up in Munich Germany in winter, and came away with 2 great songs, 1 masterpiece, and 4 utterly crap songs. “Hots on for Nowhere”, “Candy Store Rock”, “Royal Orleans”, and “For Your Life” reek of a band spent of ideas. (Thankfully through the input of Jones & Plant, “In Through the Outdoor” proved otherwise.)
“Presence” was always considered their weakest effort. Everything on it was mostly Page’s ideas. They were rushed for time but it was circumstantial due to Plant’s injury and their ongoing tax exile. The group had all this pent up energy due to an aborted World Tour that was to hit Asia Minor and South America where they chose instead to make an album in a short time frame. You have to add in that they were not in the best of spirits not fully knowing if their lead singer could walk properly again and despondent being away from their families. Not exactly a period conducive for a relaxed, motivated outpouring of ideas. The record comes off somber, bitter and angry to me.
11. The Mud Shark Incident
Dumb antics for frat boys. Far beneath men who wrote “Tangerine” and “Ten Years Gone”. Well, that’s what they get for keeping scumbags like Richard Cole around.
Road fever…s**t happens. Bonham was a witness while Cole did the deed. Page, Plant and Jones even Grant weren’t even present. Then again, it may well have been exaggerated to rock urban legend status since Cole was a money grubbing opportunist that needed the funds after blowing it all on excess and drugs. For all his flaws, Cole as Grant's main lieutenant did his job in making sure the group kept its appearances on time and not get ripped off at the box office.
12. Page’s Sloppy Playing Live / Robert's Live Voice
Page: What can you say? I can’t explain it. Drugs? Weak, slow fingers?
Plant: He had a strong voice early on. And on albums it was good. I don't know...he's a hard vocalist to figure.
Maybe the poor bootleg recordings make them sound worse. I never saw them live so can’t say. On the positive side, my boots from the 1980 warm up concerts, they both sound better.
Page was never about playing it exactly like the records and was prone to improvise within the frameworks of the live renditions of the songs. It led to sloppiness I agree but I’d rather hear that than exact note for note versions of songs. Plant’s voice weakened and gave out leading to an undisclosed throat surgery prior to 1975. Constant touring did him in. It goes without saying that anything poorly recorded makes ANYTHING sound worse. That 1980 European Tour was devoid of all their individual indulgences and concentrated on a tight, compact set. The band called it “Cut The Waffle” Tour.
13. The Concert Excess after Early 70’s
Between say, ’73 and ’77, the songs could really meander with self-serving solos from everyone in the band except Plant. Luckily with the influence of punk, the concerts for “Out Door” were more Spartan. It would have been a great tour.
The 1973 American Tour was fine though a bit mechanical and rote at some shows. Compared to the superior European Tour of that same year, it wasn’t as spontaneous. 1975 was a “stretching out” period for them and I favor it more over the previous and subsequent jaunts. 1977? Well, it was a bit much in three parts of the set list plus Page was heavily into his addictions in addition to Bonham’s erratic behavior. Plant was recovering from his leg injury and unsure of himself. Jones was the only one who was together. I also enjoy the 1980 Tour Over Europe recordings
14. Page's Live version of "Black Mountainside/White Summer"
I don't understand Page's fixation with this song. He doesn't even have the dexterity to pull it off. He sounds like a toddler with a broken arm. And it goes on forever.
It doesn’t bother me as much. He was much better at it in 1969-1970.
15. (Post Zeppelin)
--I wish they’d never appeared together again, on stage, in studio, anywhere, for ANY reason.
They [Plant especially] closed the book on the band. The reunions were shambolic but well intentioned. Their 02 concert from all accounts was quite well done. Then again, that is mainly due to proper reheasals that preceded it. The Song NEVER Remains The Same. I am not in favor of a re-union tour but if it were to transpire I'd certainly suss it out only for the reason I too never saw them perform. Those who don't can explore other pursuits.
--Robert can rub me wrong at times. In the 1990’s he was always criticizing “Stairway to Heaven”…dick move. Besides it being a great song, he's not the only one who created it. Page and Jones have feelings too. And dissing the release of the remastered CD sets, saying he thinks the records sound fine as is. Stupid.
Plant thinks that “Stairway” while being THE song associated with the band isn’t just what Zeppelin was about. Yeah, I’d get sick and tired too of discussing one particular subject over and over again. It’s not that Plant isn’t proud of the track but for new listeners [or old ones] he's probably annoyed that they aren’t giving credit to other compositions they made. Plant really thinks “Kashmir” covered the band’s essence more. He felt that the remasters were a touch bright probably but hey that’s his opinion. Big deal.
--The sound of Robert's voice after, say, 1985.
Age...wear and tear. It catches up to everyone especially screamers who are expected to scream and wail like they used to do.
7. Song Issues
“Black Dog”: The vocals are cool and nasty, but the circular riff and lumbering beat is the audio equivalent of getting a truck load of tar dumped on your head.
“In the Light”: Filler masquerading as something interesting.
“The Song Remains the Same”: I could do without the tacked on vocal track.
“The Rain Song”: Pretty enough when I was a kid. But now as an adult I need to be honest with myself and admit that it’s more than a little boring.
“Hot Dog”: I like the song, but it’s very jarring among the elegant songs here.
Interesting take on “Black Dog” and I never did latch on to “In The Light” myself. Hot Dog was a hokey attempt by the group for a C&W honky tonk rocker. It was all right yet not to be considered an epic by any means.
8. Song Names
“D’yer Mak’er": Great song, but as an inside joke it’s not even funny from the inside. All it did was make American kids feel stupid trying to say it, and start petty arguments over pronunciation. I swear this band must have been high ALL the time.
“Hats Off to Roy Harper”: He was good…but did they need to name a song after the guy?
“Hots On For Nowhere” what?
“How Many More Times”: sounds like a mother’s scolding
That’s Zeppelin for you…unconventional.
9. Movie Soundtrack
I actually really like the movie, especially the personal segments. Robert Plant riding a white Arabian on the beach at night? HOW THE HELL ISN’T THAT COOL!!! I’m not sure why the movie’s got such a bad name. My only problem is the song selection. (Oh and Jimmy's multi-colored sword is 100% K-mart.)
With all the stellar tracks they had up to that point, I don’t see the need for:
“Celebration Day”, “Moby Dick”, and “The Rain Song”. They could have added 5 rockin’ numbers in place of Dick Rain. Then on the actual soundtrack release, they leave “The Rain Song” on...but remove “Since I’ve Been Lovin’ You”? ? ?
“Since I’ve Been Loving You” is on the new version. Take out Bonham’s solo in the set? Yeah, that would have gone over well within the band. Page's multi colored sword? That was pretentious but hey so are the CGI effects nowadays. I thought the flick really didn't do them justice live given that it was near the end of that tour. The band came off tired... Jones' refusal to wear the same clothes made editing and piecing the footage impossible. Grant called it the "most expensive home movie ever made" and I agree.
10. Presence
I don’t know how millionaire bands find themselves rushed for time. They hurried this album while holed up in Munich Germany in winter, and came away with 2 great songs, 1 masterpiece, and 4 utterly crap songs. “Hots on for Nowhere”, “Candy Store Rock”, “Royal Orleans”, and “For Your Life” reek of a band spent of ideas. (Thankfully through the input of Jones & Plant, “In Through the Outdoor” proved otherwise.)
“Presence” was always considered their weakest effort. Everything on it was mostly Page’s ideas. They were rushed for time but it was circumstantial due to Plant’s injury and their ongoing tax exile. The group had all this pent up energy due to an aborted World Tour that was to hit Asia Minor and South America where they chose instead to make an album in a short time frame. You have to add in that they were not in the best of spirits not fully knowing if their lead singer could walk properly again and despondent being away from their families. Not exactly a period conducive for a relaxed, motivated outpouring of ideas. The record comes off somber, bitter and angry to me.
11. The Mud Shark Incident
Dumb antics for frat boys. Far beneath men who wrote “Tangerine” and “Ten Years Gone”. Well, that’s what they get for keeping scumbags like Richard Cole around.
Road fever…s**t happens. Bonham was a witness while Cole did the deed. Page, Plant and Jones even Grant weren’t even present. Then again, it may well have been exaggerated to rock urban legend status since Cole was a money grubbing opportunist that needed the funds after blowing it all on excess and drugs. For all his flaws, Cole as Grant's main lieutenant did his job in making sure the group kept its appearances on time and not get ripped off at the box office.
12. Page’s Sloppy Playing Live / Robert's Live Voice
Page: What can you say? I can’t explain it. Drugs? Weak, slow fingers?
Plant: He had a strong voice early on. And on albums it was good. I don't know...he's a hard vocalist to figure.
Maybe the poor bootleg recordings make them sound worse. I never saw them live so can’t say. On the positive side, my boots from the 1980 warm up concerts, they both sound better.
Page was never about playing it exactly like the records and was prone to improvise within the frameworks of the live renditions of the songs. It led to sloppiness I agree but I’d rather hear that than exact note for note versions of songs. Plant’s voice weakened and gave out leading to an undisclosed throat surgery prior to 1975. Constant touring did him in. It goes without saying that anything poorly recorded makes ANYTHING sound worse. That 1980 European Tour was devoid of all their individual indulgences and concentrated on a tight, compact set. The band called it “Cut The Waffle” Tour.
13. The Concert Excess after Early 70’s
Between say, ’73 and ’77, the songs could really meander with self-serving solos from everyone in the band except Plant. Luckily with the influence of punk, the concerts for “Out Door” were more Spartan. It would have been a great tour.
The 1973 American Tour was fine though a bit mechanical and rote at some shows. Compared to the superior European Tour of that same year, it wasn’t as spontaneous. 1975 was a “stretching out” period for them and I favor it more over the previous and subsequent jaunts. 1977? Well, it was a bit much in three parts of the set list plus Page was heavily into his addictions in addition to Bonham’s erratic behavior. Plant was recovering from his leg injury and unsure of himself. Jones was the only one who was together. I also enjoy the 1980 Tour Over Europe recordings
14. Page's Live version of "Black Mountainside/White Summer"
I don't understand Page's fixation with this song. He doesn't even have the dexterity to pull it off. He sounds like a toddler with a broken arm. And it goes on forever.
It doesn’t bother me as much. He was much better at it in 1969-1970.
15. (Post Zeppelin)
--I wish they’d never appeared together again, on stage, in studio, anywhere, for ANY reason.
They [Plant especially] closed the book on the band. The reunions were shambolic but well intentioned. Their 02 concert from all accounts was quite well done. Then again, that is mainly due to proper reheasals that preceded it. The Song NEVER Remains The Same. I am not in favor of a re-union tour but if it were to transpire I'd certainly suss it out only for the reason I too never saw them perform. Those who don't can explore other pursuits.
--Robert can rub me wrong at times. In the 1990’s he was always criticizing “Stairway to Heaven”…dick move. Besides it being a great song, he's not the only one who created it. Page and Jones have feelings too. And dissing the release of the remastered CD sets, saying he thinks the records sound fine as is. Stupid.
Plant thinks that “Stairway” while being THE song associated with the band isn’t just what Zeppelin was about. Yeah, I’d get sick and tired too of discussing one particular subject over and over again. It’s not that Plant isn’t proud of the track but for new listeners [or old ones] he's probably annoyed that they aren’t giving credit to other compositions they made. Plant really thinks “Kashmir” covered the band’s essence more. He felt that the remasters were a touch bright probably but hey that’s his opinion. Big deal.
--The sound of Robert's voice after, say, 1985.
Age...wear and tear. It catches up to everyone especially screamers who are expected to scream and wail like they used to do.
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ILoveJimmyPage
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Some good points made here. I agree that the criticism for their debut album was a little overdone and it's like trying to analyze a kid in a halloween costume. They were bringing their own fresh and fun variation to the blues songs that had given them inspiration and you can't really tear them apart for that since it's not supposed to be a copycat but more a different take with a hard rock twist. I think LZ I was more of a "Here we are, Led Zeppelin, not The Yardbirds... hear us roar." kind of thing and mostly a catalyst to get them onto the music/hard rock scene. It was raw. It was loud. A lot of people didn't get it but it was a sign that the peace-loving days of the 60's were ending and people wanted their hard, bluesy, head-banging rock.
LZ was also very simple. They cared not for their albums having grand names. They championed the whole idea of "album-oriented rock" and in that they wanted fans to focus on the album as a whole, as an experience. Coming up with a grand name to show off their intellectuality was not on the itinerary.
I never really thought about Hot Dog that way before... sort of like what the Rolling Stones did with Honky Tonk Women, but I just didn't buy it from Led Zeppelin. One of my very least favorite songs by them.
And you're spot on gcc with Presence. Plant was incapacitated physically and under a lot of stress and Page was on GOD KNOWS WHAT and the bands missed their families a lot around that time from tax exiles. Doesn't make for a good album-making atmosphere IMO.
And we'll never really know if the "Mudshark Incident" was fictitious or not. I agree Cole seems like an opportunist and may have embellished it to give the press something to badger him about (for a profit).
LZ was also very simple. They cared not for their albums having grand names. They championed the whole idea of "album-oriented rock" and in that they wanted fans to focus on the album as a whole, as an experience. Coming up with a grand name to show off their intellectuality was not on the itinerary.
I never really thought about Hot Dog that way before... sort of like what the Rolling Stones did with Honky Tonk Women, but I just didn't buy it from Led Zeppelin. One of my very least favorite songs by them.
And you're spot on gcc with Presence. Plant was incapacitated physically and under a lot of stress and Page was on GOD KNOWS WHAT and the bands missed their families a lot around that time from tax exiles. Doesn't make for a good album-making atmosphere IMO.
And we'll never really know if the "Mudshark Incident" was fictitious or not. I agree Cole seems like an opportunist and may have embellished it to give the press something to badger him about (for a profit).
gcczep
Ever Onward...
Well said...including your take on the changing attitudes by the end of that decade. I really don't think the music consuming public were prepared for the raucous, wild sound that LZ unleashed on the scene. It was loud, brash and unrepentant. The group were not formed to cater to a predisposed interpretation of the blues whether passive, true to the original or whatnot.
METALPRIEST
Senior Member
I gotta say that I enjoyed reading the retorts here. That was a good time!
ILoveJimmyPage
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Oh, and also... 1985? I'd say (unfortunately) his voice went south way before that. After about '73 after his rumored vocal surgery Plant's vocals were never the same. You can tell a difference in bootlegs and even on TSRTS ('73) vs. HTWWW ('72).
This band is so frickin hard to have a consistent favourite album, Houses of the Holy I have become a huge fan of. The media wrote this album off I noticed, usually if the media hates it I know I will like it because it is not an album that caters to a mainstream sort of audience. The media to me often tends to be a bit biased towards the more commercial stuff.
gcczep
Ever Onward...
Led-Zeppelin has never really received any noteworthy praise from the critics off the major music rags during their heydey particularly Rolling Stone. It was much the same on their home soil except maybe for Melody Maker with Chris Welch. Even he turned on the band by criticizing Houses. Things went to a head in the late '70's with punk rock in vogue while "dinosaur" was deemed passe. Whatever good reviews the band garnered was tepid at best and that was with the fourth and Graffiti. Maybe there is some truth to bad press is good press? A listener's choices can't/shouldn't be dictated by whatever a self imbued hip critic pens anyway. I too tend to take reviews with a healthy amount of skepticism and suspicion.
Only the last decade or two when the band really became accepted after their demise because the newer generation of music critics wanted to know what they were all about. Not to mention musicians and bands who mention them as influences. To add to your comments, Led-Zeppelin was NEVER a singles band or all about promoting themselves on Top Forty radio or any commercial program. What I love about them other than the music was their attitude about presenting themselves as music artists first and not being steered into the usual "sellout" trappings. It really reflected in how NONE of their albums [maybe save the first two] really are extensions of the previous ones.
ILoveJimmyPage
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I guess you could say their "rock star" lifestyle of excess and and debauchery contrasted with their ideals about keeping their music simple and not based on singles and keeping a low profile in that respect, but that's a topic for another day. 
