You and punk!

[Aktivator]

You're stretching the concept of "serious" way beyond its normal boundaries. In fact, you've made it so all-inclusive that it's lost its specific meaning.

Consider. The Electric Light Orchestra wanted to be taken seriously for its music. The members considered themselves serious musicians. Not for a moment though did the Dead Boys consider themselves "serious" musicians. The whole concept would have given them a rich laugh. "Heeeeee, heeee, heeee. Yeah, sure, we're serious musicians alright. Buy our records and come to our concerts and you'll see just how serious we are, heeee, heeee, heeee. You got any smokes?"

A case in point was when I shouted out "You suck!" at a Viletones concert, in early 1978 - to which Syd Leckie a.k.a. Nazi Dog responded "Oh, you know how much you're just feeding my ego by telling me that?" Consider what would happen if I shouted out the same thing just as clearly at an Electric Light Orchestra concert. Their rent-a-thugs would be all over me.

Boy your really hung up on the we're serious musicians. If any rock musician was that hung up on being a serious musician they would be in classical. Rock musicians all take their lumps and know its part of the rock game. You think ELO didn't get booed? Yeah ELO took themself so serious that they came out of a spaceship if they were just serious musicians they would just sit down and play. When you scream they suck to a punk band is part of the act; however what if the whole audience just sat down and talked and no one paid any attention to the band? Would they just go okay we do suck and breakup.


yeah we are serious musicians:

so you have a story where you told a band they suck. Do you have a story about a serious musician getting booed and the band rent-a thugs beat up he guy who said it? Frank Zappa loved to give the finger to the audience and the audience gave it right back. I've watched a guy get beat over the head with a chair at a show. The fans all watched the fight as the band kept playing and it wasn't a punk band. At the same time I've been spit on by some dumb ass punk because I wasn't dressed in black and had hippie hair. I always had more a problem with the punk fans then the actual bands.

I find bands today much more prissy. Yell something at certain shows and the artist would just stomp off stage. I don't remember seeing that or hearing about that until the 90's.

 

[Fisha]

^^I have to agree Fisha, the first Wave of Punk blows the latest incarnation to smithereens...and I will never really think of Green Day as a punk band. They are just a rock band in my opinion, but that is for another thread and another day.(I do like GD as well, but as for nu-metal,,,it is horrid stuff.)

Haha I wish I could claim the compliment and just be happy with it but naa you'llwork out sooner or later you've misinterprated me. I absolutely adore 90's and 00's punk that's what punk is to me. I do enjoy some ramones, clash, buzzcocks and some of the early stuff but I find a lack of variation and a lot of it I cna't get into. Most of my enjoyment of it lies in the fact is it contains the origins of what i love so much.

Personally I think people are too caught up in the origional image of punk, if you aren't saying **** the government it's not punk but that doesn't sit well with me at all. Punk is anything that has a veiw if you ask me, as long as it's not midless and conformist then it's a veiw. So for everyone talking about offspring and greenday they are most defiantely punk and anyone who thinks otherwise can just advertise the fact they are an arguementative wanker by arguing it.

As more the whole topic of "being serious" I hardly think it's relavent to being punk but on the other hand most punk bands can have a laugh, no other genre is filled with as many tounge in cheek, sarcastic and sardonic songs.

Hmm I'm feeling prompeted to make a NOFX thread. I'm not sure how many people here are familier with NOFX but they are by far the most "punk" band in the world, in particular the lead singer, Fat Mike. As a band they not only have veiws but they follow through with them. In 2004 Mike got together a whole set of top bands to create the rock against bush which was an album opposing the bush establishment. He also started "Fat Wreck Chords" which is his record label. It's line up now includes NOFX, Screeching Weasle, Strung out, Agianst me, Rise against, Frenzal Rhomb and basically be the better chunk of all punk musicians. The great thing about Fat Wreck Chords is that the bands only ever sign single record deals, they cna leave when they want to and are never forcibly attatched to the label.

Now that I think about it I will make a NOFX thread in the near future. but here's a taste for anyone who thought punk mihgt be dead.

 

[LG]

^^I understand, well then I have to disagree a little the First Punk bands will always be the best. As I stated some of the newer ones are okay, but I never got into NOFX, so go ahead and write a thread for them.

 

[Astrid Kirchherr65]

Boy your really hung up on the we're serious musicians. If any rock musician was that hung up on being a serious musician they would be in classical. Rock musicians all take their lumps and know its part of the rock game. You think ELO didn't get booed? Yeah ELO took themself so serious that they came out of a spaceship if they were just serious musicians they would just sit down and play. When you scream they suck to a punk band is part of the act; however what if the whole audience just sat down and talked and no one paid any attention to the band? Would they just go okay we do suck and breakup.


yeah we are serious musicians:

so you have a story where you told a band they suck. Do you have a story about a serious musician getting booed and the band rent-a thugs beat up he guy who said it? Frank Zappa loved to give the finger to the audience and the audience gave it right back. I've watched a guy get beat over the head with a chair at a show. The fans all watched the fight as the band kept playing and it wasn't a punk band. At the same time I've been spit on by some dumb ass punk because I wasn't dressed in black and had hippie hair. I always had more a problem with the punk fans then the actual bands.

I find bands today much more prissy. Yell something at certain shows and the artist would just stomp off stage. I don't remember seeing that or hearing about that until the 90's.

You make some very valid points here A.K.

I happen to like both Ramones and The Clash. I think they ARE two different styles of Punk .But there are very different styles of most kinds of music. I think the one thing in my mind that makes music classify as 'punk' is that it's fast delivery,simple chords,and raw appeal sound.

some bands did it fast and crazy -Ramones/Sex Pistols
or more serious lyrics like The Clash and Early Boomtown Rats

or more artsy like Patti Smith/Velvet Underground, which i finally agree had rootsin the genre

and then there was stuff that I think started as punk-ish like Blondie/Talking Heads etc that in my mind just petered off into 'New Wave' or Pop

It's just to my ears I say this ,critics will prob disagree but I'm saying from my point of view as long as you were basic pissing off at 'The Man' it was punk to me

I think Greenday basically is in this
and theres the Irish Punk like The Dropkick Murphy's that are bringing new elements to the basic form...

 

[rtbuck]

You make some very valid points here A.K.

I happen to like both Ramones and The Clash. I think they ARE two different styles of Punk .But there are very different styles of most kinds of music. I think the one thing in my mind that makes music classify as 'punk' is that it's fast delivery,simple chords,and raw appeal sound.

some bands did it fast and crazy -Ramones/Sex Pistols
or more serious lyrics like The Clash and Early Boomtown Rats

or more artsy like Patti Smith/Velvet Underground, which i finally agree had rootsin the genre

and then there was stuff that I think started as punk-ish like Blondie/Talking Heads etc that in my mind just petered off into 'New Wave' or Pop

It's just to my ears I say this ,critics will prob disagree but I'm saying from my point of view as long as you were basic pissing off at 'The Man' it was punk to me

I think Greenday basically is in this
and theres the Irish Punk like The Dropkick Murphy's that are bringing new elements to the basic form...

I agree with most everything you say. I just didn't get into the Clash all that much. I do like a lot of their songs but overall they didn't do a whole lot for me. I liked the whole early New Wave era with Blondie,Talking Heads, Elvis Costello...etc.

I will say that the Ramones lyrics are one of the reasons I got into Punk. Even though I despised 'Rocket to Russia" upon my first listen & traded it away shortly after I got it,there was something about the lyrics to "Teenage Lobotomy" & "We're a Happy Family" that stuck in my mind. When I finally got into them it was for the fun of them with their crazy lyrics & the energy of their 3 chord 2 minute masterpieces. It were those tunes that also developed my sense of humor in music. I started searching for & discovering the craziest tunes I could (stuff like "Psycho Chicken" by the Fools, "Chop Up Your Mother" by the Sic F**ks, & "Buttocks" by the Meatmen). I really hit the jackpot with the Repo Man soundtrack in the mid 80's with stuff like "Pablo Picasso was Never called an Asshole"(actually a Jonathan Richman Cover) by the Burning Sensations, "TV Party" by Black Flag, "Shit Hits the Fan" by the Circle Jerks(who also do a hilarious Punked up medley of 70's AM Radio hits on their 'Golden Shower of Hits' album), & "Let's Have a War" by Fear. Speaking of Jonathan Richman...Back in the mid 80's I was thumbing through an old Creem Magazine & read a review of a show he did. It said he sang off mic most of the time & he was awful but at the same time it was great so I figured why not??? I picked up the 'Modern Lovers Live' & it became a hilarious hit for me. Add "Da Da Da" by Trio to that & I was always the hit of parties & was always asked to bring all those crazy records. All of that & Dr. Demento really added to my sense of humor.

 

[Foxhound]

Aktivator:

Okay. So I guess the basic point in your post is that bands like the Electric Light Orchestra didn't take themselves that seriously either, at least they didn't in the seventies and eighties.

You've also frequently contested the point that punk bands were rebelling against the excesses that had crept into rock music.

Do you then disagree that the punk bands of the seventies were out to reembrace the short singles of the early to mid sixties? How would you characterize the punk movement if you don't see rebellion against introspection/excesses in rock as a key defining characteristic? If punk wasn't rebelling against relevance and reembracing mindless fun, what then was it all about?

You don't agree with me but you do admit that punk existed as a distinct movement. How then would you define/characterize punk?

 

[Aktivator]

You make some very valid points here A.K.

I happen to like both Ramones and The Clash. I think they ARE two different styles of Punk .But there are very different styles of most kinds of music. I think the one thing in my mind that makes music classify as 'punk' is that it's fast delivery,simple chords,and raw appeal sound.

some bands did it fast and crazy -Ramones/Sex Pistols
or more serious lyrics like The Clash and Early Boomtown Rats

or more artsy like Patti Smith/Velvet Underground, which i finally agree had rootsin the genre

and then there was stuff that I think started as punk-ish like Blondie/Talking Heads etc that in my mind just petered off into 'New Wave' or Pop

It's just to my ears I say this ,critics will prob disagree but I'm saying from my point of view as long as you were basic pissing off at 'The Man' it was punk to me

I think Greenday basically is in this
and theres the Irish Punk like The Dropkick Murphy's that are bringing new elements to the basic form...

I agree with most of what you said Astrid. In fact I've not answered the original question here because I need to tackle some dates down to pin point what I think about the punk movement at least the NYC punk movement which I was more aware of. Also the punk/new wave split sounds great when you look at it now but in the beginning this was not so clear. The same crowd at CBGB's were there to see the talking heads, the ramones, blondie, patti smith, television etc. Sure a few others came for various bands but the core group was the same people.

 

[Foxhound]

Personally I think people are too caught up in the origional image of punk, if you aren't saying **** the government it's not punk but that doesn't sit well with me at all.

I'm afraid that I'm not clear as to your point. Are you saying that punk rock does or does not have to incorporate an element of rebellion against authority?

Punk is anything that has a veiw if you ask me, as long as it's not midless and conformist then it's a veiw.

But it was precisely mindlessness in which the early punk bands revelled! Bands such as the Stooges, the Dead Boys, the Damned, the Vibrators, the "B" Girls and Teenage Head were rebelling against taking anything, including their own music, seriously.

As more the whole topic of "being serious" I hardly think it's relavent to being punk....

I disagree. I'm saying that lack of seriousness was at the start, and still should be, integral to punk.

mm I'm feeling prompeted to make a NOFX thread. I'm not sure how many people here are familier with NOFX but they are by far the most "punk" band in the world, in particular the lead singer, Fat Mike. As a band they not only have veiws but they follow through with them. In 2004 Mike got together a whole set of top bands to create the rock against bush which was an album opposing the bush establishment.

I would therefore say that NOFX are way too political to be proper punks. Now you might want to argue that the Sex Pistols were political, but their political stance was nihilism - which is the only political position consistent with the mindless rebellion of the original punk movement.

My bottom line is that mindless fun, nihilism and rebellion against introspective excess in rock are at the core of punk. Anger is not. Anger is just a secondary element introduced by latter day punk wannabees who thus diluted the original concept.

 

[Foxhound]

It's just to my ears I say this ,critics will prob disagree but I'm saying from my point of view as long as you were basic pissing off at 'The Man' it was punk to me.

I disagree. I don't think that pissing anyone off was/is integral to punk. It does not have to be angry. The Ramones weren't angry. The Dead Boys weren't angry. Neither were the Damned. Nor Blondie. Nor the B-52s. Nihilism doesn't have to incorporate anger.

I'm saying that simplistic fun and a rebellion against the music of their older hippie siblings was at the core of punk rock in emporiums such as CBGB's.

 

[Astrid Kirchherr65]

I agree with most of what you said Astrid. In fact I've not answered the original question here because I need to tackle some dates down to pin point what I think about the punk movement at least the NYC punk movement which I was more aware of. Also the punk/new wave split sounds great when you look at it now but in the beginning this was not so clear. The same crowd at CBGB's were there to see the talking heads, the ramones, blondie, patti smith, television etc. Sure a few others came for various bands but the core group was the same people.

I respect that you were'there' in CBGB's to see things as they were AK. It wasn't pretty much of it . I know that The Ramones ,well Dee Dee at least had seriously messed up his life.

David Johansen has made some really descriptive comments of WHAT he saw and it's nasty. Drugs ! Ugly things people did for them in this era !

I haven't answered the original question because it's hard for me to define when/how punk affected me .

Yeah it was all mixed in ..everyone who didn't have a 'label' for their music called it punk I think ?
and then it was 'New Wave'
and now it's Alt Music ...
or Indie I think ?