Songs That You Like For Their Production

[Craig in Indy]

I hadn't seen this thread before today LG. I have to second your nomination of OMD's first album. I thought the clean production also extended at least through the next couple of their records as well.

Steely Dan was also known for their production work, though I don't recall who was at the helm for most of the best-sounding of their records. I'm particularly fond of Gaucho.

 

[LG]

^^You are right about SD Craig, they would be one of my next examples.

As for "TW",,,I get the fact some bands want a specific sound on their guitars, and the politics that go on in the studio about who gets more "Bandwith" etc., but when it comes down to something as simple as a bass guitar, or a nice kick drum(Frankentstein, Tank) there is no excuse I can think of for not giving them a solid feel.(As opposed to most of Metallica's early albums terrible production values, even for a thrash metal band who wanted their sound to be rough.)

If you tell me all the bands you produced wanted shitty sounding albums so be it, but if you had the ability to make the best quality recordings possible I am sure you would do prefer to do it that way.

 

[Magic]

Wow. Claiming that the performance and sound quality were affected by the musicians' hard drug use is a "scapegoat"? Interesting allegation. Perhaps you could explain this. And perhaps you could tell us what specific aspects and components of the production you don't like -- of course Sixx is going to claim that I was a drug user, mainly because I embarrassed him in the pages of the New York Times Sunday Book Review.
We were all drug users of some sort in the 80"s, but do you think that perhaps there's a small difference between doing a few lines with the band after the session is over, and injecting heroin into your veins during the course of recording the album? Daily? And what about the approval of the final mixes by the principal individual in each group? Even if they were on the road, I'd send them the final mix before I went to mastering. I would not mix a record without a leading member of the band in attendance. It would be more productive if you and others on this forum who are so convinced that my records sound terrible could address these questions, and be specific about what made the production so unacceptable -- and why 40 million fans with no apparent taste bought 23 gold and platinum records over my 20-year career as a producer.

I bought the albums because Motley Crue are kickass......not because of the producer/production. I was in my 20's, this was party music that everyone bought and enjoyed. There is no denying that Dr. Feelgood is the best sounding album from this time period, and the best selling album!

Blaming a lack of vibrant, rich sounding production on the band's drug abuse is scapegoating. You stated clearly that the band was shooting heroin and that when they went under production with Bob they were clean. But you omit the notion that possibly the band is kickass, whether under the influence or sober, and production made all the differnce to the sound of the recorded material.

As far as your successful track record for being the producer behind 23 gold and platinum albums, the only answer I have is you had the privilege of working with some kickass bands, who happened to be hot performers in demand by the hungry fans.

 

[werm1000]

Interesting, again. Lord Grendel now writes that I'm saying all my bands wanted shitty sounding records. Brilliant.

Another poster says I was successful because I "had the opportunity" to work with some kickass bands. Who do you think signed half those bands, and how do you think I "got the opportunity" to work with the other half? Answer: They asked me. So the bands you think I served poorly were the same people who requested my involvement with their records. I've rarely seen such sniping on any serious music chat board -- and I have yet to see one post that actually discusses real components of real production. Are there any other actual producers in this forum? Your discussions of production seem to revolve around who likes what best, and not a wit more. Why not just have a top 100 list instead? By the way, I love these emoticons to my right.

 

[METALPRIEST]

By the way, I love these emoticons to my right.

We have plenty of 'em...

 

[Soot and Stars]

I think it's amusing that Lord Grendel asks me why an album like, for example, Motley Crue's "Girls Girls Girls" doesn't sound as good as Abbey Road. Come on, folks -- I thought this was a production forum. Perhaps there was a difference in the studio, the engineer, the producer himself, the type of song, the arrangements, the songwriting (!!) and the musicianship involved. Don't you think there's a little more sonic separation between the Beatles' instruments than Motley Crue's? And maybe the unlimited budget and allotted time frame had something to do with it. It seems that you might not be as familiar with the recording process as you could be in order to discuss these things. There was literally no separation between frequencies on Crue records, while there was tons of separation on Beatles records. Half of Vince's vocals, the top of Tommy Lee's snare, the high end of Nikki's bass and most of Mick's guitars were all fighting for the same small frequency range (upper middle). That hurts the listener's ear, and makes it more difficult for the listener to actually distinguish the parts. Did George's guitar sound like Mick Mars? Did Ringo's drum kit sound like Tommy's? It's all about assigning the instruments and vocals to different frequencies, so that the entire frequency spectrum is used. It's the difference between turning two records up, and having one sound loud while the other sounds simply painful. And if the producer wants to change the sound of the instruments in order to accomplish this, the band screams bloody murder. Every member wants to be the loudest. I could go on, but I think you might be able to get the general idea here -- at least it's a start.

Interesting, again. Lord Grendel now writes that I'm saying all my bands wanted shitty sounding records. Brilliant.

Another poster says I was successful because I "had the opportunity" to work with some kickass bands. Who do you think signed half those bands, and how do you think I "got the opportunity" to work with the other half? Answer: They asked me. So the bands you think I served poorly were the same people who requested my involvement with their records. I've rarely seen such sniping on any serious music chat board -- and I have yet to see one post that actually discusses real components of real production. Are there any other actual producers in this forum? Your discussions of production seem to revolve around who likes what best, and not a wit more. Why not just have a top 100 list instead? By the way, I love these emoticons to my right.

Well this may be the most surreal thing I've ever seen in this forum. First off not trying to be condescending but this isn't a production forum, it's a thread involving production discussed within a forum filled with music fans or "armchair critics" as you call us. I started the thread with the goal of getting people's best examples of production and I make no bones that all my choices come from a fans perspective. That means that I would base it on my own personal preferences on clarity, what's brought out versus what sounds buried, etc.

As with all things with every positive there will come a negative and people are going to talk about the production they weren't into as well. That's just life and what you refer to as "armchair critics" are just customers like anything else. It's part of the business but anyone involved in the process from the top down in the business has to answer to criticisms from the customers no differently then a fast food chain that churns out a burger someone isn't happy with. The ones who spend the money have the right to say they aren't satisfied IMO. With all the success you've had I'm not sure why the criticism bothers you as it sounds like you've had a good run and have no need to salvage your reputation especially amongst us "armchair critics". We either like a certain sound quality or not. Some like crisp squeaky clean production and some like the tinny, amateurish production so it's a mixed bag here.

I will say LG is quite the audiophile and is VERY specific to what he likes sound quality wise so that's where he's coming from. Myself, I don't obsess over equipment, the difference in sounds with mono and their remasters, etc. I can say that especially in your last post I'm very intrigued by the details you discussed that factor in so thank you for the perspective. Just don't forget that we are all here because we love music and as fans we have preferences. You must be a music fan yourself to have been in the business and I'm sure you have critiqued someone musically based on preference at some point. Anyway, thanks again for bumping my thread and making things interesting!

 

[METALPRIEST]

Well said Soot.....and
Mr. Werman, as a musician myself (and an overboard collector) I own alot of your works and have enjoyed them throughout the years..

Free For All
Cat Scratch Fever
Heaven Tonight
Dream Police (Love the whole sound of that)
Tooth and Nail
Love/Hate
Shout At The Devil (which I dug better than Girls Girls Girls)


To name a few....Stay Hungry?? That was and still is an awesome album and after hearing that deluxe version and the bonus tracks I think the songs that were thrown out between artist and producer was not only a smart move but justified.

I'm also familiar with, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, that you were not too happy with A.J.'s drum sound...pretty garbage canny...but in the end became quite distinctive in sound. The beginning of WNGTI is a prime example. Had this roomy feel.

Also I wouldn't get too upset at any of our members here for their opinion, because it's only preference...and as Soot pointed out , LG is not full of hot air...he is a REAL audiophile and can talk all of us under the table when it comes to sound equipment and electronics. He's all about the sound and I respect his opinion ALOT...and my set up isn't too shabby either.

Anywhoo, I thought I would offer a little love and let you know of a couple albums I am fond of that you were at the controls for. There's more....some albums I like better than others..as would be expected.

If we were sharin' a beer, I'm sure I could name a band, or hell even a song, where at one point you might say..."That blows" ...but as a professional would find other things you may enjoy about the same artist.

So please don't take anything to heart...we are a great group of people here..with a nice forum and it's an honor to have you here, making this discussion interesting. Please stick around if you'd like and hang with the party...that is MUSIC!!

 

[Magic]

Interesting, again. Lord Grendel now writes that I'm saying all my bands wanted shitty sounding records. Brilliant.

Another poster says I was successful because I "had the opportunity" to work with some kickass bands. Who do you think signed half those bands, and how do you think I "got the opportunity" to work with the other half? Answer: They asked me. So the bands you think I served poorly were the same people who requested my involvement with their records. I've rarely seen such sniping on any serious music chat board -- and I have yet to see one post that actually discusses real components of real production. Are there any other actual producers in this forum? Your discussions of production seem to revolve around who likes what best, and not a wit more. Why not just have a top 100 list instead? By the way, I love these emoticons to my right.

I will admit I don't know anything about production or sound mixing, but I know what sounds good to my ears.

You are correct on one thing, I can only speak about bands that I like and listen to. If I like a band, I tend to buy everything they record. This does give me the opportunity to listen and compare the sound quality of each album/cd. Some have better sound than others, and I usually can relate that directly to the sound production.

I am not saying you were a horrible producer, I do own a few albums you have produced and am quite happy with the sound quality.

Flirrtin' With Disaster ~ This was a really good sounding album much better than the debut.
Cat Scratch Fever ~ Another good sounding album with a fantastic song selection.
Tooth and Nail ~ Another good album.


To be honest, I don't fully credit a band's success on the production of their releases, but instead I credit the band's skill and touring perfomance. Either a band has what it takes in musicianship to be successful or they don't.


I think you should be thanking us music fans for making you successful by buying the music, not criticizing us on whether we are skilled producers or have the ability to hear the differences in production quality. We do have ears and are intelligent enough to notice even subtle sound differences and know when an album has a decent song selection and flow to those songs.

 

[joe]

There is so many dynamics that come into play on producing a record and the sound that the personnel of both sides of the glass are trying to achieve. Not having any experience what so ever in the recording studio, I think one must and I do, take in the considerations when, where, how, who, economics, and the genre that produce the final outcome of an album.

I remember very well when I heard Metallica's Kill 'Em All when it was first released in 1983 when I was 18 years old on the Canadian label Banzai Records before Electra took control. The sound and the music was very refreshing at that time. I was blown away, it was something I hadn't heard before. One might argue that it sounds out dated listening to it today, but at the time I considered it a break through album and has been very influential in the metal world, there's no denying that. With that being said, don't you think "when" has an influence as well. I would.

How long did the band have in the studio for recording this album? What about the quality of equipment? Both of these fore mentioned dynamics come down to the economics. Compare how long and the recording equipment technology from the date of Kill 'Em All to that of the Black album.

The sound both the producer and the band were looking for? The power struggle(egos, musical direction and influences, etc.) of members of the band and that between producer and artist? There is two sides to the coin here IMO. Some fans might argue the Black album was "over produced" and others "under produced". For me, the sound production on Kill 'Em All captures the raw, intense, power of the band, but I also like the production on the Black album as well.

Also personal dynamics play a role as well IMO, like substance abuse, mental illness, family and sexual/love relationships. To say that these don't play a factor in the out come of the final product is ridiculous. Different degrees of/and different substance abuses has an influence and to say that a herion addiction, or in fact, any addiction doesn't impact judgement, senses, cooridination and decision making in this process, is well, "come on now". There is no comparison between somebody snortin' a few lines and somebody bangin' heroin.

They're are fans of Metallica that argue the band "sold out" on the s/t album and that it was to reach the "masses". The "original" fans of the band before the release of the Black album state this opinion. Many hadn't even heard Metallica before the Black was released and then became fans themselves. Some of the hardcore fans goes as far to say the band was hypocritical with the release of the Black, as it was with Kill "em All, the bands statement in regards to other heavy metals bands "selling out" at that time.

To place blame on one person, people and circumstances for the finished product is an excuse, so black and white and narrow minded. "I think" all parties should accept some responsibility.

Sure, I think some albums are "over produced" and others "under produced" but I make my final decession on the factors mentioned above as well as what captures "my" liking.

 

[Soot and Stars]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Great post!