Black Metal before Black Metal existed and Blackened Thrash Metal

Nololob

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Re: Proto-Black Metal and First Wave of Black Metal

Venom wasn't influential to Bathory, Bathory made his first album with sound of black metal out of nowhere. In fact Quorthon never heard of Venom until 1985.
Mayhem's first album is good, way stronger than first wave of BM. Their later stuff after Dead and Euronymous died is kinda going down IMO.

The reason why I mentioned proto-black metal is because no matter what there always is some sort of "proto" thing. I don't know, if they can be mentioned later, but does have that something, like Cromagnon and Jacula - BM quality, Coven and Black Widow - occult lyrics.
 

LOU/REALM

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Re: Proto-Black Metal and First Wave of Black Metal

I know where you are coming from with the early Proto black metal Nololob Id never heard of JACULA before....and there is some connection there.The Cromagnon track definately had the vocal style of a sort which in 1969 is unusual. Dont know about the bagpipes though.....they must have been pioneers to use this instrument in Rock music. Plenty of German bands doing it now..
Hmm thats interesting about BATHORY denying they had heard of VENOM...and it was from an interview in a magazine. I take your word for it. Sometimes thats the case where bands are doing their "own" thing and it can be coincidental that they get compared to other bands.
As regards to MAYHEM ...I went to see Black metal band HEATHEN DEITY several years ago who featured my best friend on guitar . I picked out their best song....turned out to be a MAYHEM song "Deathcrush". Killer guitar riff !!!:cheers2
 

joe

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Re: Proto-Black Metal and First Wave of Black Metal

Lots of examples in Wolf's Proto-metal thread. Sudden Death, Icecross, Lucifer's Friend, Writing On The Wall, Horse, Bodkin, etc.
With no disrespect:

Jacula IMO is RPI/symphonic/gothic(cathedral) prog IMO. "Triumphatus Sad" is the only track that resembles "black" metal.

Black Widow is a psych/pop/prog/jazz/folk fusion. I hear nothing that indicates black metal to my ears.

Coven reminds me of Jefferson Airplane somewhat with a pop style.

With that all being said I think know what you're looking. I could be wrong. IMO alot of krautrock maybe one of the foundations of black metal with some the artists eerie, dark, creepy ambiences, moods and lyrical content.

Here's a krautrock band that had alot hype around it 25 years ago. The vinyl was very hard to find and very expensive. I did get a German import of the CD about 15 years ago. IMO, it was alot of hype. I have a hard time listening to it. It might be to your liking.

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DaKillerWolf

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Re: Proto-Black Metal and First Wave of Black Metal

I don't see any of the bands you listed as proto - black except the ones you said are not :heheh:

Not that I see any of it as black really but I do see the relationship to black metal regarding the bands that Nololob mentioned.

I'm not really a huge black metal fan ( I like some it and I love a lot of Black thrash ) so this isn't really my thing Nolo
 

Nololob

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Re: Proto-Black Metal and First Wave of Black Metal

Joe, Coven and Black Widow used occult/satanic lyrics into their music, which may classify as proto black metal. If you listen to Venom you may find what black metal is about. :)
 

joe

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Re: Proto-Black Metal and First Wave of Black Metal

I don't see any of the bands you listed as proto - black except the ones you said are not :heheh:

Not that I see any of it as black really but I do see the relationship to black metal regarding the bands that Nololob mentioned.

Awe jeez Wolf. You too. That pretty well includes everybody now laughing at me here on the forum, including myself. I'm deeply distraught over these turns events. Oh well. That's how the cookie crumbles. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.:D

Joe, Coven and Black Widow used occult/satanic lyrics into their music, which may classify as proto black metal. If you listen to Venom you may find what black metal is about. :)

Ah, no thanks. I can still hear Venom ringing in my ears from almost 30 years ago when I bought At War With Satan. I remember buying the album because of the cover. When I put it on the turntable and after a few minutes I said to myself, ":wtf: is this sh**." I somehow got through listening to the whole album once and the next weekend took it back to A&B Sound and told one of the staff that is skipped. Well, he put it on the turntable in the store and asked me where it skipped. I lied. He eventually came to the conclusion that it didn't skip. I caught red handed and they wouldn't exchange it. I gave it my buddy.

Alot of bands used occult/satanic lyrics before 1970. Some psych, folk, Carribean freak folk, country, blues, etc.

Maybe LOU said it best that the FWOBM was maybe influenced mostly Black Sabbath. I don't know. Like Wolf, I'm no expert. However that first wave must of had some influences. I don't who they are. Maybe you know. Maybe you don't.

IMO, I don't think one artist and/or album from the '70's is the definite influence on the FWOBM. I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. I think it would be a combination of different musical styles/rock genres that would of influenced the FWOBM. But like I said I have no idea who did, but I'm sure someone knows as I would think that many FWOBM would reference thier influences. Then again, maybe not. That is why I'm asking you. I guess I could on research mission on the internet to find out but the subject doesn't interest me that much to spend alot of time on.

From what I gather since you been here on the forum you seem to know your stuff on this subject. I look forward to your answer.:grinthumb
 

Nololob

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Re: Proto-Black Metal and First Wave of Black Metal

^^ Quite a good story about Venom. :grinthumb

I might have said everything wrong. Coven, Cromagnon, Black Widow and Jacula were way before black metal. It's like saying "black metal before black metal existed", but not literally metal.

Alot of bands used occult/satanic lyrics before 1970.
And I'd love to know them. :D

I change the name of thread into "Black Metal before Black Metal existed and Blackened Thrash Metal" to make it clear.

DKW, blackened thrash metal is welcome, that's what FWOBM mainly is. :cheers2

Regarding the influence of black metal - yes, mainly Black Sabbath. Since Venom started the whole black metal scene it was speedy 'n' thrashy, just like Motorhead. Also it does have some influence from punk. I doubt those proto bands influenced them just a tiny bit. But my interest is... a little bit different and I'd like to expand on occult rock as wide as possible.
 

joe

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I appreciate the answer Nolo. Good point, punk is definitely an influence I can hear as is Motorhead. It would be interesting to see what specific bands Venom was influenced by.

BTW, I'm not saying Venom is a sh***y band, but it's something I can't listen to. I've tried listening to some of the more recent black metal bands like In The Woods..., Moonsorrow and Enslaved but just can't tolerate it.

Give me a few minutes to list some pre-1970's bands with occult/satanic lyrics.
 

Nololob

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That's fine. I clearly understand their music is not for everyone. I couldn't stand this sort of music myself until I went to college. I met another metalhead, he was into new age metal of course, but without him I wouldn't know some stoner and doom metal bands and obviously black metal. Also he told me without me he wouldn't listen to classic metal. :heheh:

Here's quote from Wiki Venom page

Prime influences of the formative band were Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Motörhead and Kiss. Other bands cited by Venom as an inspiration are Queen, The Who, Deep Purple, Sex Pistols, Van Halen, The Tubes and Rolling Stones.
 

joe

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Thanx Nolo. I can see the Sex Pistols, but The Tubes. I guess I was looking a little too hard. Priest, Purple, and Motorhead are obvious. I keep forgetting about Wiki for quick references.
 

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