Honor and Sportsmanship...have we lost it?

[Lord Grendel]

Basically a thread to expound upon what I feel is an epidemic in our amateur and professional sports nowadays.

For my first example, I'll talk about the Tour de France which wraps up today in Paris. For the last 6 years I have watched this amazing spectacle and had nothing but the utmost respect for the accomplishment of the athletes who undertake what I feel has to be the toughest three week event in the world. What they go through to get to the finish line is simply mind boggling and a testimony to the dedication and mental toughness the competitors have to possess to even finish this event.

Part of the attraction is the sheer beauty of France, it has to be among the most attractive/diverse countries in the whole world to visit, a little bit of everything for everyone. I did live there as a young lad when Dad was stationed overseas, and I do hope to make it back one day and try to visit all the places we missed before.

Anyway, today Alberto Contador wins the tour, unless they change the rules and Andy Schleck attacks him on this the final day, which is not likely seeing it's considered a "Victory Parade Stage" rather than an actual racing stage. I have no problem with that, if it's tradition then so be it, even if you were just a few seconds behind the organizers/officials don't expect you to try and win on this day.

So they race up the Champs Elysee today and the fans will be out in force to celebrate another successful bike race...well until the next few days when all the testing is completed of the racers. Then we will most likely be reading about a few riders who tried to cheat the system once again and diminish the entire grandeur of a great sporting event. I just don't understand all this, every time I am ready to give accolades to the best riders I have a lingering suspicion in the back of my mind that they are cheating somehow, and are just a step ahead of the testers for now. I guess we have to blame the Money and the competitive nature of the athletes, if they can get any advantage over their peers I guess they succumb to the temptation and take the needle.

Lance Armstrong is about to be embroiled in a massive long term legal battle now, Floyd Landis is going to expose the entire inner workings of the team that helped Lance achieve immortality in the Tour de France. Lance has hired a very expensive lawyer to battle these accusations and in the end, I feel he will be caught out. If all his team members testify and tell the truth all the money in the world won't save his reputation, and that is truly tragic.

[Magic]

Depends on what sport you watch and what you consider sportsmanship and honor to be defined as.

The name of a sport (game) has always been to 'win' and do whatever it takes to win. If you trample over a weaker member in the same sport, NO, I dont consider that dishonor or unsportsmanlike conduct.

I do consider drug enhancement cheating. These steroids and other drugs have been around a very very long time. This isn't new, it is just now becoming an object of scrutiny, and it should be scrutinized. Any athlete who has to use drugs to get ahead, isn't an athlete he/she is a cheat.


I will use Pete Rose as my example, he lost his sports stature over illegal betting. This had nothing to do with him as an athlete. Was it unsportsmanlike conduct? I dont think it was. The question of honor comes into play. He dishonored himself for cheap profit.

I dont know how many of you watch UFC, those guys beat the shit out of each other, then shake each others hands and work out together.....They definitely respect and honor their sport.

I dont think honor and sportsmanship are lost, I just think greed has entered into the "do whatever it takes" to win formula.

[Lord Grendel]

I am aghast that UFC is as popular as it is, I find that whole...Sport?, contemptible, I thought we had grown beyond gladiatorial combat, but I guess I was wrong. Someone died a few weeks ago in New Jersey I think in one of those fighting leagues, not the last one I'll wager that does.

I think we are past the point of no return, it's time for the athletes to use whatever drugs and doctors they want, and just come clean and put the names of whatever they are using on their jerseys and get it over with. There seems to be no way around the cheating, and for those honest competitors it's just not fair.

Lance Armstrong had connections to one of the most infamous doctors in cycling, for example. Even his most ardent supporters have questioned why he has to fly to Spain or Italy(I can't remember which) to consult with this particular MD. I will not be surprised if he is tarnished by the impending legal proceedings, and all his ill tempered responses to these allegations will be all about the money he stands to lose. Like one announcer said years ago,,,"Aren't there any good doctors in the States that Lance could go and see?"

This whole business and the obvious "Kill Shots" in many sports are among the reasons my passion for them is diminishing as I get older, and I used to be a passionate fan.

[aeroplane]

Like Magic said, it depends on the sport and it depends on what way you look at it.

Take a sport like baseball for example.

The sport was full of racist meatheads in the early 1900's. Hell, the game wasn't even integrated until the late 1940's. Not to mention you had the Black Sox scandal during that period of time (early 1900's).

So if the topic is honor and sportsmanship, really you might as well throw pre-integration baseball right out the window. That wipes out everything before 1947, including the likes of Babe Ruth. Can't call fellas like Ruth or Gehrig the greatest of all time when you could have had anywhere from 50 guys to 200 at any given time that were easily Major League caliber players but forced to play exclusively in the Negro Leagues.

Once baseball was integrated, people could say that the game was finally on the level. Though that wasn't necessarily the case and I'll get into that later.

Unless you count Pete Rose's "case", which was an isolated incident (he was the only one caught after all), then next on the agenda after integration would probably be the strike of 1994, which cancelled a World Series. Then you have a period of baseball labelled as the Steroid Era, which supposedly occured from the mid 1990's until around 2006 or thereabouts. That isn't as cut-and-dried as people like to think, however.

It's well documented that steroids were commonly used in the NFL during the 1970's. What's to have stopped them from being used in Major League Baseball throughout the 1970's?

Any way you slice it, the only really spot-free periods in baseball history might be the 1950's and 1960's. Yet during that time period, you had spitballers, guys using Vaseline balls or scuffed balls, rampant sign stealing, headhunting & beanballs, no free agency to speak of, not to mention greenies & other amphetamines.

On and on we go.

[Lord Grendel]

^^Not a baseball fan Aero and never will be, I just found it too slow moving for my tastes.

The Honor in sports has slipped in my lifetime, no doubt about it at all. In football it's no longer about making a tackle, it's about decapitating someone on the field. In hockey the amount of cheap shots is worse than I have ever seen before, again it's not about the game it's about hurting someone, maybe permanently. In the days I grew up watching hockey the veterans cut the rookies some slack, if they crossed the blue line with their head down, the old boys would give them a "Heads Up" before they hit them, allowing them a chance to prepare themselves. That is gone now, it is epidemic and the rise of the UFC confirms my worst suspicions, boxing was bad enough, but that sport offends me beyond anything I have ever seen.

Soon it will be Lions and Tigers and Bears...oh my how far we have come.

[aeroplane]

Originally Posted by Lord Grendel ^^Not a baseball fan Aero and never will be, I just found it too slow moving for my tastes. The Honor in sports has slipped in my lifetime, no doubt about it at all. In football it's no longer about making a tackle, it's about decapitating someone on the field. In hockey the amount of cheap shots is worse than I have ever seen before, again it's not about the game it's about hurting someone, maybe permanently. In the days I grew up watching hockey the veterans cut the rookies some slack, if they crossed the blue line with their head down, the old boys would give them a "Heads Up" before they hit them, allowing them a chance to prepare themselves. That is gone now, it is epidemic and the rise of the UFC confirms my worst suspicions, boxing was bad enough, but that sport offends me beyond anything I have ever seen. Soon it will be Lions and Tigers and Bears...oh my how far we have come.

I don't like the UFC either. Boxing has had a lot of issues with performance enhancing drugs and like boxing, the UFC would seem to be a very fertile environment for steroid use.

To win in that league, you have to escape from submission holds, you have to have striking power, you have to possess endurance and be able to absorb damage.

What better way to improve in some of those areas than to get ahold of some steroids, HGH, creatine or whatever these clowns are using nowadays?

The UFC President constantly promotes the league as being clean, very well-run, well-structured and disciplined but he just comes across as a snake oil salesman.

[Magic]

Originally Posted by Lord Grendel I am aghast that UFC is as popular as it is, I find that whole...Sport?, contemptible, I thought we had grown beyond gladiatorial combat, but I guess I was wrong. Someone died a few weeks ago in New Jersey I think in one of those fighting leagues, not the last one I'll wager that does. This whole business and the obvious "Kill Shots" in many sports are among the reasons my passion for them is diminishing as I get older, and I used to be a passionate fan.

People die or are mamed in every sport, LG. Sports are dangerous. PERIOD. Fighting is one of the oldest displays of testosterone and sports there is


I, personally, am not a huge sports fan, in general. I dont like to go to sporting events, except maybe the Ice Capades. I dont watch them on TV, I would rather watch a good movie.

[Lord Grendel]

I disagree, before it was in the background the current rampage of UFC and MMA sports becoming mainstream is a new phenomenon. I have to agree with my peers, we have grown up in a different era, and watching grown men beat each other to a pulp in these popular arenas is just grotesque.

I have had my share of fights in hockey and elsewhere, but these new leagues are a direct result of the new generation not being satisfied with boxing and wrestling, they want it real.

I find the whole thing deplorable and reflects badly on us as a civilization.

[Magic]

Wrestling, boxing, martial arts are all very old sports, there is nothing new about the sport.

Hockey is another sport that promotes violence.....give men a stick and what is the first thing they do.....whap out another guys teeth.


There is no difference.....violence is violence no matter what the sport.

[Lord Grendel]

There is a Huge difference, in hockey when I played fights were spontaneous and went within the flow of the game, now they are staged.

The hits to the head, again totally against the code I grew up with, yet today's players kept trying to decapitate each other until the league was Embarrassed into finally taking steps to put an end to it. If someone hit my friend in the head like many replays I saw last year, the entire team would empty the bench to teach the perpetrator a lesson.

We have become more mean spirited than ever before Magic, and it shows. The UFC is just the crowning achievement of a massive step backwards in our society.

Wait till the body count starts rising, in the US many states won't license them because it's just too visceral for their liking, and I agree. My own country is a hotbed for the sport, which makes me cringe.

Altercations, pushing and shoving in a game are different, ask any football or hockey or rugby player, there is a line we do not cross,(Well it used to be that way), and UFC/MMA and the others have obliterated that now.

I was never a boxing fan either, and it's wane I considered a good thing, but now it's simply being replaced with a more vicious brand of...sport.

Gladiators with swords and shields will be next...absolutely pitiful.

[Magic]

I am not defending the sport, I am just saying that all sports can be violent.

You're the beast LG...no doubt about that

[Soot and Stars]

As a wrestling fan I just have to say that it shouldn't be included as it's marketed as sports entertainment rather than legit and can't be accused of unsportsmanlike conduct since it's scripted. As for UFC, I hate it because it simply comes down to lugs punching and kicking each other in the head and choking each other. Anyone who doesn't know wrestling has more to it than UFC knows nothing about professional wrestling as it has a wide variety of styles, maneuvers, acrobatics and carries more of an art to the trade than any MMA or UFC event. I'm not responding to any one particular comment but skimming I saw wrestling mentioned in the same thread as UFC/MMa and I had to get my two cents in.

[Mr. Shadow]

Contador was booed loudly for several days after acting like a slime ball. He totally lacked class by attacking the Yellow Jersey with a mechanical failure. You just don't do that.

Now he will never know if he was the better rider this year.

[aeroplane]

Originally Posted by Soot and Stars As a wrestling fan I just have to say that it shouldn't be included as it's marketed as sports entertainment rather than legit and can't be accused of unsportsmanlike conduct since it's scripted. As for UFC, I hate it because it simply comes down to lugs punching and kicking each other in the head and choking each other. Anyone who doesn't know wrestling has more to it than UFC knows nothing about professional wrestling as it has a wide variety of styles, maneuvers, acrobatics and carries more of an art to the trade than any MMA or UFC event. I'm not responding to any one particular comment but skimming I saw wrestling mentioned in the same thread as UFC/MMa and I had to get my two cents in.

One other thing that I've often noticed.........

What I find amusing is that boxers and the MMA guys (including the UFC) pretty much have zero respect for professional wrestlers.

However, at least professional wrestlers actually know how to "sell" their sport outside of the ring.

Most boxers and pretty much everybody in the UFC is completely clueless as to how they can "sell" their respective sports.

It is literally up to Dana White himself to sell the UFC because literally ALL of his fighters are clowns who know nothing about promoting their organization or a fight card. It is a wonder they are so successful.

Most professional boxers are the same way. They can barely sell their own fights, let alone the sport as a whole. Which is one of several reasons that boxing is in trouble today.

And this is something that most professional wrestlers have never had a problem doing, even guys who aren't particularly "high" on the totem pole.

[aeroplane]

Originally Posted by Lord Grendel There is a Huge difference, in hockey when I played fights were spontaneous and went within the flow of the game, now they are staged. The hits to the head, again totally against the code I grew up with, yet today's players kept trying to decapitate each other until the league was Embarrassed into finally taking steps to put an end to it. If someone hit my friend in the head like many replays I saw last year, the entire team would empty the bench to teach the perpetrator a lesson.

Hockey obviously needs something to get the attention of the public, who for the most part are no longer watching the sport. I should know. I'm one of the people who used to watch but now has totally tuned out hockey. It isn't just about the fighting, though.

If you care to know why.....

To be crude about it, I am damn sick and tired of seeing "new" teams crop up every frigging year. It is either expansion or a team switching cities and I just can't keep up with it anymore. It is constant. You can't even go a lousy year or two it seems without something changing as far as the list of cities and teams in the league.

You don't see the NBA or NFL constantly moving teams or introducing expansion teams. They are more careful about it. Meanwhile hockey is content to throw new teams on the wall just to see what sticks.

I have a good sized collection of hockey sports cards ranging from about 1989-1996. I'm sitting here looking at them and literally half the teams from that time period aren't even in the league anymore and it has been barely 15 years. That's ridiculous.

Instead I turn on games and find myself asking who the hell this team is and when they came in the league. Why couldn't they have just left the Minnesota North Stars, Hartford Whalers and a bunch of other teams the hell alone? Atlanta, Nashville and Columbus who as far as I can tell just came into the league overnight out of smoke, mists and fog ought to just go away.

How on earth can the NHL constantly tinker with the list of teams in the league to the point the casual viewer can't even keep up with who is in the league anymore in a given division but still carry themselves and conduct themselves as one of the "big 4" in sports along with the MLB, NFL and NBA.

Don't even get me started on how hockey is one of the only sports I know of who will have guys on rosters that have no talent except for balancing on skates and hurting people. It is a joke to the quality of the league to see guys who can only score 1-2 goals in an 82 game season, even if they get considerable ice time, and they are occupying rosters just to start fights or pile up penalty minutes while keeping guys who could play much better than them rotting in the AHL.

Yes, there are dudes in the NFL and NBA who hurt people and will beat people up but at least they can also play.