Serious Discussions and Debate forum!

[Flower]

^^^I agree with Lynch on the above.

Plus, it's a fact, that there are many people who dish 'it' out but can't take it and/or make it personal. I know that if anyone crosses the line with me and makes it personal that I will slap them down and when this happens the jerk who crossed the line in the first place has often gone crying to others that I'm being mean or picking on them.

It is rare that I read debates where I have no interest in the topic or the people debating .. I'd rather post about music or something funny.

Btw ~ I was born in NYC and know how to curse but I'm turned off by unnecessary cursing online. If you can't debate without cursing, you have no credibility with me.

[Soot and Stars]

I say it's impossible to have it both ways. Either it's hands off and people deal with the content or it's hands on and we as mods go out of our way to keep anything from escalating even if it means tempering both parties involved. My personal preference would to be not to have a serious discussions section whatsoever because IMO it accomplishes nothing but I wouldn't actively pursue that because this forum is about the majority and what makes people happy.

My vote is for "Yes, with the minimal limitations set by the admins."!

[METALPRIEST]

Originally Posted by FoxyPage I dont care if it is filtered but getting an infraction for it is stupid since it's already filtered, anyways. ....and, yeah, you kinda missed my point. I was making a point that it is childish here and that people here are treated like little kids. Adults will swear once in a while. People will get heated in debates. It's a given. No one should be punished for it, unless their entire post is just one big flame without any sort of legit argument. I am not saying that YES, WE SHOULD ALL GO AHEAD AND FLAME BECAUSE WE CAN!!! I am just saying that if people throw out a fame or two during a heated debate, it should just be let go.

If I may.....allowing flaming of any kind is allowing others to act like "little kids" in Kindergarten.

It grows from there...it will be all "well he got to say" or "she got to say". It will never end.

In my experience...the more a forum "let things go" the worse it got and the less activity and loss of members followed.

This forum is active and busier than any forum I have experienced due to the fact that it's fun, the people are fun...and we're coming here for music. More will join. More will follow.

Sarcastic forums where everyone fights or not gets along....well...they don't work out too well. Forums with a bit of common ground between all it's members equals a more enjoyable experience.

I think there is enough open mindedness here...hell some music forums don't even have a serious discussion forum. We've proven we can handle it.

[Truckin]

I am a member on a bluegrass forum that had a no holds barred forum. It got to the point that people were being threatened so they had to clean out the vermin. Now it is dead there. Not just that forum but the entire site.

[Groovy Man]

Originally Posted by Lynch I'm going to ponder my answer/opinion before giving it.

Same here.

Originally Posted by METALPRIEST If I may.....allowing flaming of any kind is allowing others to act like "little kids" in Kindergarten.

I think people here are getting the wrong idea about what I am saying. I am NOT saying we should ENCOURAGE flaming. I am saying that if someone pops out 'you're an idiot', that person shouldn't get an infraction for it. It's all part of debating getting heated. People feel strongly about their opinion and will eventually post something of that nature just to let some heat off. I am NOT saying we should do it every two seconds but if someone gets hot over the matter and needs to let out a one liner or something, let it be. If it gets to the point where every second word is a flame, yeah, I'd say let a mod step in and calm it down but if people go back and forth a few times while being a bit blunt, just let those people get the heat out. They'll calm down after a while. Again, it was like what happened between CN and Lynch. They got heated, had some choice words, life went on (though mods stepped in and warned and deleted) but the two had a good argument going that wasn't strictly flaming.

In my experience...the more a forum "let things go" the worse it got and the less activity and loss of members followed.

In my experience, at another forum. We have one active mod who doesn't care what we do. People flame left right and center but the core group, which is a fairly big group, still post there daily, we still get new people, and we still get lots of activity. People like it because you can be free and not have nazi mods hanging around you and watching every little thing that you do (before anyone says anything, this is NOT directed at anyone here, this is just general). People know they can go there and chill out however they want. Like here, we are one big family over there. We flame each other but also stand by each other in music talk.

In the end, 99% of the flaming there stays in off topic and not in any music threads because, even though it's a free for all, almost everyone is smart enough to keep music talk about music and not about flaming. I'd also like to note that the majority of the other forum members are in their teens and early 20's. Most people here are older so if a forum with a lot of younger people in it can remain intact, I think CRF will be just fine and can handle it.

This forum is active and busier than any forum I have experienced due to the fact that it's fun, the people are fun...and we're coming here for music. More will join. More will follow.

The other forum is actually the same way, as are many other forums. Here are the stats:

Threads: 21,469, Posts: 612,673, Members: 14,014, Active Members: 584

Sarcastic forums where everyone fights or not gets along....well...they don't work out too well. Forums with a bit of common ground between all it's members equals a more enjoyable experience.

Again, the other forum has been around for about 5 years now. Like any other forum, it gets a bit slow in the summer because everyone is enjoying the weather, but it's still active and still fun. You get to meet a lot of people with different personalities and music taste. People have gone from extremely hated to respected. Sure, it's a tougher forum, but most of the toughness is 'hazing' to see if the member can handle it and if they have a backbone. Basically, to get a bit of a feel for that person. A lot of members are sarcastic while using flames so they want to test the newbie and see how they react. If they react poorly to a sarcastic flame, they wont last long because everyone is sarcastic but it's all for fun.

I think there is enough open mindedness here...hell some music forums don't even have a serious discussion forum. We've proven we can handle it.

Most music forums I have been to have had a serious discussion, though it is sometimes grouped under random/general chat.....


I'm not trying to knock this place at all. I've been here just as long as I have been at the other forum. The difference is (besides the lack of metalheads, lol) is that I personally feel like an outcast here. This isn't a 'feel sorry for me' thing, I just feel that I don't fit in much because I am more honest than most and people take that as me thinking I am superior or just being a bitch when it's far from that. I like this place and want to have some fun here, I just sometimes feel like I am walking on eggshells. I don't know if anyone else feels the same way but I sure do, like I have to be extra careful what I say or do because someone might take it personally because they don't understand my personality very well. I didn't feel that way at all when I first joined this place because it didn't have as many rules as it does now, though most people were friendly, anyways. The stricter rules kinda bring a place down because people feel they have to be a certain way and have to constantly watch what they say and do. Kinda takes away the fun factor when saying something innocent but with a swear word included = an infraction (like 'this album is effing awesome!!!).

Anyways, I kinda rambled on because I am in the typing mood but I don't want anyone to think that I want people to jump in here and flame like crazy. Just saying that debating usually has people who slip up and I don't think they should be punished for it and that flaming doesn't always mean a forum is a failure. Main point is, you can't expect people to be perfect angels during a debate, there will be slip ups, so I don't think people should be punished for it.

[annie]

^^^ I do not agree with any of the above. Adults can and should debate without sinking into shouting matches and profanity. Here we have shown that such is possible with most posts in our serious debates. Heated two-person arguments should go the private message route.

Ever hear of "Robert's Rules of Order?" It provides common rules and procedures for deliberation and debate in order to place the whole membership on the same footing and speaking the same language. It states, "Remarks must be courteous in language and deportment - avoid all personalities, never allude to others by name or to motives!"

I think that if someone objects to the rules of the forum, then they should go elsewhere.

[Dave78]

If anyone is looking for a rock music forum which allows you the freedom to say anything and everything you desire, this other forum I know is your place. The admin there, is very patient. The favored term of choice over there is "douche".

But if CRF is considering relaxing the rules and regulations here in this section, I have no problem with that either.

Things just might get interesting during Festivus for the "Airing Of Grievances".

[Lynch]

Originally Posted by Flower You don't have to agree but I am entitled to state my opinion which is worth as much as Lynch's opinion ...

since it's been a proven fact that my opinion isn't worth shit...

... well, I'll just leave it at that.

[Lynch]

Originally Posted by ladyislingering Well, I guess. Maybe there are just some people who can't debate rather than argue like they've barely made it out of high school. Or just some people who can't speak their mind tactfully.

bolded for truth. This is the case with some people, myself included at times. That being said, I've witnessed it countless times, especially in threads about politics or religion where someone is trying to get a point across, but isn't the wordsmith that someone else in the conversation/debate is, and they are made to look and/or feel stupid which can also be the source (and open sore) for causing problems with said users both within the community as well as in one-on-one situations.

Originally Posted by ladyislingering There's a time and a place for a little playing around (false douchebaggery, of course - just being facetious and whatnot) but sometimes even that can be misconstrued.

And this is and can also be a problem within the serious debate forum. As anyone that knows me, knows that I can be (and will be) as much of a smart-ass as anyone on the site.... it's easy for someone with "thin skin" to take it comments out of context as well allowing themselves to be/get offended by said comments and make complaints, or escalate a playful ribbing into a heated attack and banter session.

Allowing no-holds-barred (NHB from here on out) could very easily make this worse, imho. HOWEVER, in a NHB forum, I would sincerely hope that anyone who ventures in would be aware of this and either tread very lightly or realize they need to wear a raincoat as they are bound to get wet at times.


(no, I still haven't voted or given my FULL opinion on this subject yet)

[METALPRIEST]

Foxy I appreciate your opinion but I really don't care what they do at the other forum (s) you attend. If flaming is allowed there and you have a great time with that I say more power to you. You wouldn't catch me there on my worst day.

Here? I don't think it's a good idea. Like you said it's ok to let off a bit of steam and say "You're an Idiot" once in a while right? Also you say as long as it's not every two seconds. If it becomes a problem than mods can step in (cause once leads to twice to every second word). OK...why not just make it easier for everyone and not allow it at all.

[Lynch]

Originally Posted by Flower Btw ~ I was born in NYC and know how to curse but I'm turned off by unnecessary cursing online. If you can't debate without cursing, you have no credibility with me.

I understand what you are saying, and in some ways I agree; however, cursing can be simply a form of expression and isn't necessarily offensive unless a reader deems it by their own personal morals and tactfulness.

ie: "I just got back from the KISS show and I gotta tell ya, WHAT A GREAT F**KING CONCERT!!!" This isn't aimed at any person, nor is it childish name calling such as "you like KISS? you are a f**king moron and have no clue what good music is". Same exact word, two very different contexts.

My point is, cursing ~is~ a form of expression. Some see no problem with it and use it at varying levels in many types of conversations, others don't like it, but in the context of freedom of speech, I have zero problem with it. So back to the underlined quoted text, no, you don't HAVE to curse in a debate, but I don't think that it takes away from anyone's credibility. Context/content of a person's post should be the deciding factor, not whether or not they use a few colorful adjectives, verbs, etc.

[Lynch]

Originally Posted by Magic It is impossible to age verify people on the internet. So saying a forum (or any website) for that matter is strictly 18+ is a false sense of security.

not completely true, but for the most part, you are right. The ~only~ way to "verify" age is via a credit card authentication. All this does is verify the age of the owner of said credit card, but does not verify the age of the person using it. This is something that actually can be used on a vbulletin board and has to be installed completely separate from the normal software and the ~only~ thing it would do is protect the site owner from liability if someone underage is exposed and/or partakes in 18+ content. If it really came down to it and something ended up in court, I have no idea how well it would protect the site owner. Not saying we should use this, I'm just pointing out the option is there. But as magic said, there's no true way to verify age

Originally Posted by Magic The F-bomb will always be filtered on this forum, that isn't going to change.

****!!!

[Soot and Stars]

I have no shame at all about our current nature and rules. We've accomplished something I've never seen before as a whole in respects to our nature and I agree with Metal about not caring about the other forums. There's a reason that I'm here and not there as well as others. There's no reason to loosen the rules because like Annie and others have said, if you can't argue here without directed expletives or insults then you obviously don't have the tools for debating period. I have nothing against swearing in general but I don't need it. There are like two words that are censored and plenty left here a kindergartner wouldn't use.

The reason I say let's the horse run free is just my personal opinion that that section provides nothing of value to a music forum. The reason that this question needed to be put up in the first place is the adult conduct that needs to be put into a section like that has failed and needs a change. I've seen more scuffles in those than at the North Country bars I go to and those fights get separated quicker too. It's not just here! I've never seen those topics work anywhere. Even with moderation the same personal issues come up and the same tensions are there. It's almost predictable where a topic is heading before it officially starts. People don't have the temperament to stay with the topic rather than the person who disagrees with them. Human nature never fails.

If we let it be free then maybe more people would walk away rather than continue the fight knowing that it won't stop. I think the comfort level of having someone step in and be on your side makes people feel safe throwing out a dig and then counting on a mod having everything stop while they are still ahead. No one feels they are the instigator. Just my opinion! Maybe the end result of this would be the more artistic side (the music) of the forum would start to interest them more. That's my selfish desire!

I think it's beyond juvenile to call people idiots but if the section goes unmoderated then I'll never see it anyway. If we keep it then I'm just fine doing what I've done with my team and making popular and unpopular decisions to keep peace! With everything I've said as observations I love it here and I love the people. Having said that I think this needs an honest stance with reasons and that's what I've tried to give. Thanks!

[annie]

Originally Posted by Lynch ie: "I just got back from the KISS show and I gotta tell ya, WHAT A GREAT F**KING CONCERT!!!" This isn't aimed at any person, nor is it childish name calling such as "you like KISS? you are a f**king moron and have no clue what good music is". Same exact word, two very different contexts.

Unfortunately, the " you are a f**king moron and [their fans] have no clue what good music is" has been posted here in the music forums many times. I object to denigrating the fans just because you do not like the band. Throw your flames at the band, not at the fans. As we have all said dozens of times, music is subjective, there is no all good and all bad.